Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

Speaking for myself only, I dislike almost all prosecutors, so Corey isn't getting a special treatment from me. A huge exception is Craig Watkins, Dallas County D.A. who is a personal hero.

Oh, I get that. And trust me, that has been made abundantly clear. I'm just not sure what the incessant reiteration of your dislike for Corey has to do with the facts of the case.

See, I don't like morons with poor judgment who run around with guns playing cops and robbers. But I doubt if I used that as my basis for criticizing Zimmerman I'd get much traction in this thread. I try to stick to the facts of the case, and it would be nice if other people could as well.

 

[GWCarver]

I asked this earlier in the thread without a response. Can anyone tell me at what stage is the disbarment process for Corey?

See your above quote? That is you bringing up Corey. My most recent posts about her have to do with my opinion she hasn't done anything illegal.

 

[crimresearch]

Maybe I'm being unclear. An APC is supposed to contain all information material to the statements it contains supporting probable cause - not just those favorable to the state. It doesn't have to include all information material to the case. It doesn't have to include every possible scenario that can explain away the statement. It has to include all material information that the state knew, or reasonably should have known (in some jurisdictions), to be true and material.

Police investigate a theft. They take ten witness statements. Nine of the statements identify John Doe. One statement identifies Bob Smith. The police cannot write a APC that uses the ID of Bob Smith without mentioning the ones for John Doe. If they do, the defendant can issue a Franks challenge citing a material misstatement - the omission of the exculpatory IDs. If it's found to be true and material, the ID is stripped from the APC and it is reevaluated. If at that time it lacks probable cause, then the seizure is illegal.

This APC contains some of that information (e.g. "an altercation occured") but it is woefully incomplete. In other places (e.g. Martin's voice ID, it is absent).

You are not unclear.

You are simply altering definitions and references to support your incorrect conclusions.

 

[johnny karate]

See your above quote? That is you bringing up Corey. My most recent posts about her have to do with my opinion she hasn't done anything illegal.

I'm not sure what your point is. Corey and her nefarious activities were still being actively discussed in this thread prior to my post.

And the fact that you now admit she hasn't actually done anything illegal kind of proves my point.

If there aren't any illegal or unethical activities to discuss, then what are we talking about? How much some people don't like Corey.

I'm still failing to see the relevance of that.

 

[GWCarver]

I'm not sure what your point is. Corey and her nefarious activities were still being actively discussed in this thread prior to my post.

And the fact that you now admit she hasn't actually done anything illegal kind of proves my point.

If there aren't any illegal or unethical activities to discuss, then what are we talking about? How much some people don't like Corey.

I'm still failing to see the relevance of that.

We have been discussing the legality of Corey's prosecution for a while now. You must have skipped that part.

To use your term, I would say that Corey's nefarious activities in this prosecution have been legal. And, I didn't say Corey's actions have been ethical, although I presume they have been, with what passes for ethical conduct in the mentality of today's prosecutors.

It seems clear to me that the ABA rules/guidelines for prosecutors are not enforced or enforceable, I don't know which. If I had to take a guess, I would say that those rules have all been obsoleted by case law and higher court decisions. There has to be a reason they don't appear to apply today.

I do expect O'Mara to submit a motion to challenge the probable cause affidavit at some point for its erroneous content and failure to establish the "depraved mind" of Zimmerman, maybe on the 29th of this month.

 

[Kaosium]

That was the sworn statement of 2 investigators, not Corey herself.

That's true! It's the affidavit her office submitted and has her name on it too, though.

Here is her sworn statement of charges, an entirely different matter.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/11/zimmerman.charges.pdf

Thank you! I dug this up as well, it refers to her 'investigatory duties:'

The Honorable ANGELA COREY, State Attorney for the Fourth Judicial Circuit of Florida, referred to as the "Assigned State Attorney," is assigned to discharge the duties of the Honorable NORMAN R. WOLFINGER, State Attorney for the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit of Florida, as they relate the investigation and all matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin.

I also found this regarding what those duties might entail:

1. Arrest of An Offender - The State Attorney must review every arrest for violations of state law that occurs in his respective circuit. This review process can be very extensive. The State Attorney must rely on law enforcement to prepare arrest reports, victim affidavits, witness statements and to secure the evidence needed to prove each and every element of the offenses charged.

Once the State Attorney has reviewed all supporting documents and sworn testimony, a decision is made to either file an Information, decline to file any charges (No Info), file a change of charge, present the case to the Grand Jury or require additional investigation.

Where exactly does she note that she saw any pictures?

It never occurred to me that she wouldn't have reviewed the evidence she chose not to take before a Grand Jury, on what basis could she have possibly made that decision? It notes in this article she said here:

The case was expected to be taken up as early as Tuesday by a grand jury.

But special prosecutor Angela Corey said Monday she will not bring the case before a grand jury.

Corey said she continues to investigate the case,and that her decision to skip the grand jury should not be a factor in determining whether charges will be filed against Zimmerman, the Associated Press reports.

The decision now rests with Corey, who would provide no further comment. Corey has two choices left, according to CNN: File charges or drop the case.

Corey previously told CNN she has never used a grand jury to decide on charges in a justifiable homicide case.

“We do a thorough investigation. We make that decision ourselves,” she told the network.

She's a special prosecutor who's been assigned to and considers herself in an investigatory role who had to make a decision on whether to expose the case to a Grand Jury, how could she do that without being aware of the evidence in the case? How could she properly discharge her duties as a State Attorney? Has anyone--especially her--actually argued that she didn't look at the pictures, and on what basis?

 

[Kaosium]

I would assume so. Specific rules of the ABA she has violated were cited. A constitutional right was infringed upon. Our justice system has taken one step closer the oppressive totalitarianism of North Korea.

Surely there must be some real-world consequences for such blatant subversion of the American justice system and way of life.

Surely this isn't just some internet circle jerk among people who have decided to dislike Corey.

Surely Corey must be on her way to disbarment, and possibly the gas chamber, for her crimes against humanity.

I'm just curious to know where in that process we are.

The 'investigation' stage. Wanna play? I think she's going down in the end, we will see though!

I will say that watching you defend this hardass 'law-and-order' Republican with a history of victimizing minorities and children with bizarre charges and threatening liberal icons and institutions like Alan Dershowitz, the Southern Poverty Law Center, the press, and Harvard University makes for sublime irony.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

'm just impressed people have gotten over "the results of the software are conclusive because the website looks nice" phase, which went about 100 pages.

Don't forget, Thomas Owen also has some very shiny and impressive looking certificates.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

I was interested if Treyvon Martin was a gangbanger so I googled it. Apparrently he allegedly refereed a fight club that was deleted but someone took a nice screen shot of him giving the finger. Thats right here. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/19/trayvons-fight-club-the-inconvienient-truth/

It had a purported picture of a tattoo that Trevon supposedly had. I googled clasped hand tattoo and came up with a post that asked the woman why she wanted a gang banger prison tattoo. I am guessing that if he is a minor with a tattoo like that he probably has some gang afiliation. Heres the gang tattoo post if anybodys interested

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080628082834AAAh3sU

It has been my experience that hoodies, gold teeth, ugly teenage tattoos, and pot in the bookbag, are generally typical of your average gang banger.

gang bangers are basically into robbing people at gunpoint, burgleries, selling drugs, and shooting other gangbangers. Here they like to shoot people for their bikes.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Having said that, there's also the difference between how things are in the books, and how they're done in the real world. I understand the distinction and similarly misleading affidavits might well be common practice in Florida as they just go through the motions of due process and the appellate courts don't even care. I don't think that's a good thing if true, and would rather live in Alan Dershowitz's America than Susan's or Corey's, as I suspect their attitudes lead to miscarriages of justice, which is what that process is supposed to protect us from.

^ This, and I'd wager money that most of the people defending it here would be outraged if it was in a case where they had different feelings about the defendant.

 

[crimresearch]

That's true! It's the affidavit her office submitted and has her name on it too, though.



Thank you! I dug this up as well, it refers to her 'investigatory duties:'



I also found this regarding what those duties might entail:





It never occurred to me that she wouldn't have reviewed the evidence she chose not to take before a Grand Jury, on what basis could she have possibly made that decision? It notes in this article she said here:



She's a special prosecutor who's been assigned to and considers herself in an investigatory role who had to make a decision on whether to expose the case to a Grand Jury, how could she do that without being aware of the evidence in the case? How could she properly discharge her duties as a State Attorney? Has anyone--especially her--actually argued that she didn't look at the pictures, and on what basis?

The use of letterhead doesn't make it her statement, any more than the Governor is responsible for the PC statements on the back of every traffic ticket written in the state.

And as pointed out over and over again, the probabable cause isn't the completion of her investigatory duties, it is barely the beginning.

 

[Kaosium]

The use of letterhead doesn't make it her statement, any more than the Governor is responsible for the PC statements on the back of every traffic ticket written in the state.

And as pointed out over and over again, the probabable cause isn't the completion of her investigatory duties, it is barely the beginning.

I don't understand, are you arguing that Corey didn't examine the evidence before she chose to bypass the Grand Jury and filed charges?

If that's the case what basis do you have for that belief?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I was interested if Treyvon Martin was a gangbanger so I googled it. Apparrently he allegedly refereed a fight club that was deleted but someone took a nice screen shot of him giving the finger. Thats right here. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/19/trayvons-fight-club-the-inconvienient-truth/

It had a purported picture of a tattoo that Trevon supposedly had. I googled clasped hand tattoo and came up with a post that asked the woman why she wanted a gang banger prison tattoo. I am guessing that if he is a minor with a tattoo like that he probably has some gang afiliation. Heres the gang tattoo post if anybodys interested

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080628082834AAAh3sU

It has been my experience that hoodies, gold teeth, ugly teenage tattoos, and pot in the bookbag, are generally typical of your average gang banger.

gang bangers are basically into robbing people at gunpoint, burgleries, selling drugs, and shooting other gangbangers. Here they like to shoot people for their bikes.

I quote the above only to call attention to all those who are convinced that GZ has a "history of violence", was acting as a "wannabe cop", has a "proven record of anger issues" etc. The post above if from your twin on our side of the aisle, and you're both totally wrong . Enjoy reading it, because you're reading yourself.

 

[crimresearch]

I don't understand, are you arguing that Corey didn't examine the evidence before she chose to bypass the Grand Jury and filed charges?

If that's the case what basis do you have for that belief?

You don't seem to understand, despite it being posted, and explained over and over (this time, and when it first came up), that there is a significant difference between the Affidavit of Probable Cause, and the statement of charges. It has been specifically spelled out that we are talking about the former, yet you keep conflating it with the latter.

Why is that?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I will say that watching you defend this hardass 'law-and-order' Republican with a history of victimizing minorities and children with bizarre charges and threatening liberal icons and institutions like Alan Dershowitz, the Southern Poverty Law Center, the press, and Harvard University makes for sublime irony.

Yep, see my last two posts. It's a classic example of confirmation bias, when the same behavior that would outrage people in one circumstance suddenly becomes embraced in a circumstance where it accomplishes what they want.

 

[Kaosium]

You don't seem to understand, despite it being posted, and explained over and over (this time, and when it first came up), that there is a significant difference between the Affidavit of Probable Cause, and the statement of charges. It has been specifically spelled out that we are talking about the former, yet you keep conflating it with the latter.

Why is that?

You've lost me completely now CR!

I was talking about whether Corey had seen the pictures documenting the wounds to GZ's head and made a mistake and said she'd admitted she had in the APC. You noted that was not true and I agreed you were correct and then went on to point out how she must have anyway for other reasons, which I posted and were not addressed. Now I have no idea what we're arguing about!

Waitaminnit, would you like a stronger mea culpa on whether she said she'd examined the pictures in the APC? I was wrong, she didn't actually say that in that document, as she didn't sign it as you rightly pointed out.

 

[crimresearch]

You've lost me completely now CR!

I was talking about whether Corey had seen the pictures documenting the wounds to GZ's head and made a mistake and said she'd admitted she had in the APC. You noted that was not true and I agreed you were correct and then went on to point out how she must have anyway for other reasons, which I posted and were not addressed. Now I have no idea what we're arguing about!

Waitaminnit, would you like a stronger mea culpa on whether she said she'd examined the pictures in the APC? I was wrong, she didn't actually say that in that document, as she didn't sign it as you rightly pointed out.

My apologies, it is getting hard to tell the serious discussions from the static at this point.

The statement of charges, is simply that. 'The acccused did on or about the umpteenth of March knowingly and with malicious intent, proceed to engage in acts of piracy, barratry, and ribaldry, in violation of subsection 12, 4th floor of the Muncipal Uniform Code of Unfair Stuffage (MUCUS)...'

The affadavit of probable cause is simply an assertion of whatever information, observation, etc. gives rise to the notion that a crime has been committed.

Before allowing that to go out over their assistant's signature, it isn't neccessary that a prosecutor have personally played CSI with every item and document.

To meet the threshold for doing that so that things don't get thrown out by a judge later, all they really have to establish that everything seemed to be in order. Mistakes are allowed, up to a point, and that point is set pretty high. And of course, that leaves room for ambitious prosecutors or their office, to play games with people.


So I just don't know what Derschowitz is so wound up about.
Both documents were ordinary enough paperwork. Is he writing articles about the 'inexcusable errors' in the police report listing Martin at one weight, and the autopsy giving another?
I would be equally surprised if he were, because nothing in the system requires preternatural accuracy at those points in the process.

ETA: I'm not defending Corey's America vs. Dershowitz's America, I'm just saying that he really seems to be barking up the wrong tree in this particular instance.

 

[Mumbles]

I was interested if Treyvon Martin was a gangbanger so I googled it. Apparrently he allegedly refereed a fight club that was deleted but someone took a nice screen shot of him giving the finger. Thats right here. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/19/trayvons-fight-club-the-inconvienient-truth/

It had a purported picture of a tattoo that Trevon supposedly had. I googled clasped hand tattoo and came up with a post that asked the woman why she wanted a gang banger prison tattoo. I am guessing that if he is a minor with a tattoo like that he probably has some gang afiliation. Heres the gang tattoo post if anybodys interested

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080628082834AAAh3sU

It has been my experience that hoodies, gold teeth, ugly teenage tattoos, and pot in the bookbag, are generally typical of your average gang banger.

gang bangers are basically into robbing people at gunpoint, burgleries, selling drugs, and shooting other gangbangers. Here they like to shoot people for their bikes.

Now that's laughing dog funny. The fact is, the evidence that Martin was some sort of violent gang-banger, is about as strong as the evidence Zimmerman was a murderous racist. Sorry, maybe refereeing one fight, and taking web photos of yourself with some cheap gold fronts? That's not a gangster, that's a kid that likes rap music. Pot use? That's pretty much every part of the US, sorry. And sites like conservative treehouse have been especially bad at these sort of bizarre theories, since they don't seem to have the slightest interest in truth.

People really should stick to the facts of the case, instead of digging through old MySpace or twitter accounts to paint some weird caricature of the people involved.

 

[Kaosium]

Yep, see my last two posts. It's a classic example of confirmation bias, when the same behavior that would outrage people in one circumstance suddenly becomes embraced in a circumstance where it accomplishes what they want.

I call it 'politics' and I won't get fooled again!

 

[This is The End]

Wow, nearly all of the previous 100 posts are about the Prosecuting Attorney in the case...