Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Unabogie]

George doesn't have to explain himself. It is his right. However, if the discussion is in camera, O'Mara may let him talk directly to the judge. I just don't know how that works.

Also, I'm wondering why you think the judge would deny Zimmerman bail - effectively sentencing him to what may be years in jail - for a matter that has nothing to do with whether or not he committed murder, is a risk to the public safety, or is a risk to flee.

Someone who attempts to hide a significant cache of cash from the court is absolutely a risk to flee.

Furthermore, I don't think the judge is required to meet any kind of legal standard regarding the risk to flee. It's entirely up to his discretion. And if he's decided that Zimmerman is untrustworthy - which he is - and therefore a flight-risk, that's all he would need to remand him.

Exactly. The judge can deny bond for any reason, as far as I know. He is under no obligation to let George back out. Especially if he thinks George has attempted to pull one over on him and lead him down the primrose path.

Nope, I think that just as Judge Lester said, George will have to explain himself on the 29th, and he'll have to do so under oath if he wants to get out before trial.

 

[Cylinder]

I think bond can only be denied for certain reasons. Not sure if GZ remaining silent for a few days would be one.

I think GZ will indeed testify, btw.

Zimmerman cannot be required to testify under oath and on record to receive bail. Zimmerman enjoys protection against self-incrimination by the US Constitution and the right to bail except under a very limited set of circumstances under the Constitution of Florida.

SECTION 14. Pretrial release and detention.— Unless charged with a capital offense or an offense punishable by life imprisonment and the proof of guilt is evident or the presumption is great, every person charged with a crime or violation of municipal or county ordinance shall be entitled to pretrial release on reasonable conditions. If no conditions of release can reasonably protect the community from risk of physical harm to persons, assure the presence of the accused at trial, or assure the integrity of the judicial process, the accused may be detained.

The courts are very clear that the government cannot force the waiver of one right in order to exercise another.

That's why de la Riando suggested an in camera review.

 

[Unabogie]

Oh, I missed it. Which post ?



It seems likely that she lied. I refer to my earlier post about the law and hair splitting. When asked 'how much is in the account' the answer 'I don't know' is truthful. Claims about not having an estimate would seem to be a lies. I still doubt she will be charged.



That's why I asked when all that information was available, etc. If MO'M filled out paperwork, it may have been accurate at the time it was filled out, and GZ never spoke up to correct the false impression it was still accurate. I believe that is the story MO'M will be going with.



I won't ask you to go dig through posts, but I don't recall accusing him of being a burglar. I claimed he was either a burglar or holding stolen goods for a friend.



I thought we were ?



If it's just an issue of credibility, sure. I thought there was a legal question of if this would be admissible for those purposes, though. I could have misunderstood.



Please stop with the histrionics. But the answer is the phone calls they recorded ? Those conversations took place before the initial bond hearing, so clearly the state knew ?

George's own lawyer admits he lied about it. His own lawyer admits that he lied.

http://maximumnewsinformer.com/?p=7998

"The audio recordings of Mr. Zimmerman’s phone conversations while in jail make it clear that Mr. Zimmerman knew a significant sum had been raised"

That's from his own lawyer. It's not "likely" he lied. It's a fact.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is the point of contention here. Maybe it was only people here in the
[..]

Found this link, which doesn't support jumping from the bushes, but says Trayvon approached George "from behind". This is in stark contrast to DD, who says Trayvon was actively trying to evade George, who approached Trayvon and was "getting closer".

was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him

But I'll retract the part about bushes. I think that was just the speculation that went on here.

I think above represents GZ story. And it does not disagree, IMO, from DeeDee, except in perspective. GZ is walking towards his car, which also happens to be where TM is. (I still don't understand why TM was not already at home given the time between 'he ran' and DeeDee call hanging up, but that's a different topic) So from TM perspective, GZ is headed towards him, although from GZ perspective, he is headed to the car. TM decides to walk towards GZ and ask "insert what you believe what said here".

I think it all meshes together reasonably well.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

George's own lawyer admits he lied about it. His own lawyer admits that he lied.

http://maximumnewsinformer.com/?p=7998

"The audio recordings of Mr. Zimmerman’s phone conversations while in jail make it clear that Mr. Zimmerman knew a significant sum had been raised"

That's from his own lawyer. It's not "likely" he lied. It's a fact.

That's why I asked when all that information was available, etc. If MO'M filled out paperwork, it may have been accurate at the time it was filled out, and GZ never spoke up to correct the false impression it was still accurate. I believe that is the story MO'M will be going with.

If he knew about the money after he told MO'M about his assets, or the money mostly came in after he told MO'M about his assets, then that explains the judges remark of him sitting there like a potted palm and letting MO'M tell a story to the judge GZ knew was not accurate. That is not the same as a lie. And yes, I am splitting hairs, because I am talking (trying to) about the legal aspects. I already said that what they did was prima facie dishonest, and it hurts their credibility. Legally , I don't know.

 

[johnny karate]

That's why I asked when all that information was available, etc. If MO'M filled out paperwork, it may have been accurate at the time it was filled out, and GZ never spoke up to correct the false impression it was still accurate. I believe that is the story MO'M will be going with.

Zimmerman "not speaking up" is willful deception.

We know his wife lied on his behalf. We know Zimmerman attempted to willfully deceive the court. It doesn't take a big leap - or any leap at all, really - to connect those dots and conclude their was a conspiracy between the two.

I won't ask you to go dig through posts, but I don't recall accusing him of being a burglar. I claimed he was either a burglar or holding stolen goods for a friend.

And that conclusion was drawn on evidence at least as good as the evidence for Zimmerman's conspiracy.

Please stop with the histrionics.

Histrionics? I offered a fair conclusion based on the facts. Just like you concluded Martin was either a burglar or at least tangentially involved in burglary.

But the answer is the phone calls they recorded ? Those conversations took place before the initial bond hearing, so clearly the state knew ?

Just because the calls took place before the hearing doesn't mean the prosecution had the information at the hearing. They most likely built their case after the fact upon speculating Zimmerman was being less than truthful.

 

[Cylinder]

So do you have any evidence that conclusively demonstrates Zimmerman was repeatedly punched, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

It's not my assertaion that Zimmerman was repeatedly punched, though I think that likely. My claim is that the injuries photographed weren't caused by a single punch to the nose and subsequent fall. It's like the old joke, I swear your honor, she fell onto the knife -- 12 times!

I like how you chastise me for misquoting the medical report before telling us how the medical report was probably wrong anyway.

I'm not claiming the SFD report was wrong - it's just not inclusive. Any rational person has to admit that the photos show more injuries than are documented in the report, right? They evaluated Zimmerman handcuffed in the back of an SPD vehicle. Not the ideal setting.

Am I'm not chastising you - I like to call this vigorous debate.

 

[GWCarver]

Someone who attempts to hide a significant cache of cash from the court is absolutely a risk to flee.

Furthermore, I don't think the judge is required to meet any kind of legal standard regarding the risk to flee. It's entirely up to his discretion. And if he's decided that Zimmerman is untrustworthy - which he is - and therefore a flight-risk, that's all he would need to remand him.

You know, he keeps showing up every time they ask for him, without knowing in advance if he will ever get out. I would say that is better evidence of his flight risk than any speculation on his finances in the past. He has already been penalized 15K and returned to jail for a case that is nothing more than what appears to be a legal railroad. Thus far, no exculpatory evidence has even been allowed to be presented in his defense. Enough is enough.

Remember the first hearing, when Judge Herr thanked O'Mara for his ad-hoc appearance on the spur of the moment, and was so unfamiliar with the case that he didn't recognize Zimmerman, who was standing right next to O'Mara?

Here is a quote by Judge Herr from that brief hearing:

"I will also say, for the record, I just received here moments ago a two page affadavit signed by Investigators Gilbreath and O'Steen to stand for probable cause with a filing of an Information on this matter."

He goes on to say after reviewing the probable cause affidavit (the one he had received "moments ago"), he found there was probable cause supporting the Information that he had received the previous day.

That travesty of justice is, in Florida, a legal substitution for a Grand Jury or preliminary hearing.

 

[LTC8K6]

Didn't he have a tracking device as a condition of bail? How was he going to flee? This is a well known condition of bail in such cases. It's not like it was a secret that he would be tracked while out on bail.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's not my assertaion that Zimmerman was repeatedly punched, though I think that likely. My claim is that the injuries photographed weren't caused by a single punch to the nose and subsequent fall. It's like the old joke, I swear your honor, she fell onto the knife -- 12 times! ....

So somewhere between one punch and "pummeled", on which end of the continuum are you estimating?

 

[LTC8K6]

You know, he keeps showing up every time they ask for him, without knowing in advance if he will ever get out. I would say that is better evidence of his flight risk than any speculation on his finances in the past. He has already been penalized 15K and returned to jail for a case that is nothing more than what appears to be a legal railroad. Thus far, no exculpatory evidence has even been allowed to be presented in his defense. Enough is enough.

Remember the first hearing, when Judge Herr thanked O'Mara for his ad-hoc appearance on the spur of the moment, and was so unfamiliar with the case that he didn't recognize Zimmerman, who was standing right next to O'Mara?

Here is a quote by Judge Herr from that brief hearing:

"I will also say, for the record, I just received here moments ago a two page affadavit signed by Investigators Gilbreath and O'Steen to stand for probable cause with a filing of an Information on this matter."

He goes on to say after reviewing the probable cause affidavit (the one he had received "moments ago"), he found there was probable cause supporting the Information that he had received the previous day.

That travesty of justice is, in Florida, a legal substitution for a Grand Jury or preliminary hearing.

Yes, in FL, a prosecutor merely presenting an affidavit like that is basically already considered probable cause. It's very easy for a prosecutor to get a warrant. There is really no investigation of the case at all for PC. It's just assumed that the prosecutor would not request the warrant without probable cause.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman "not speaking up" is willful deception.

We know his wife lied on his behalf. We know Zimmerman attempted to willfully deceive the court. It doesn't take a big leap - or any leap at all, really - to connect those dots and conclude their was a conspiracy between the two.

And that conclusion was drawn on evidence at least as good as the evidence for Zimmerman's conspiracy.

Histrionics? I offered a fair conclusion based on the facts. Just like you concluded Martin was either a burglar or at least tangentially involved in burglary.

Yes, histrionics. Proven liar, plots, conspiracy.

I already said that what they did was prima facie dishonest, and it hurts their credibility. Legally , I don't know.

Same with the burglary issue. Legally, I don't think much (actually, anything) is there. But prima facie, those were stolen goods.

I think I am being consistent.

Just because the calls took place before the hearing doesn't mean the prosecution had the information at the hearing. They most likely built their case after the fact upon speculating Zimmerman was being less than truthful.

They obviously knew before hand, unless they were morons. Perhaps they were waiting on enigma to crack Zimmermans code ?

 

[Cylinder]

So somewhere between one punch and "pummeled", on which end of the continuum are you estimating?

That's a hard question to answer without reonstructing the event. More than one. Probably more than five. Left temple, right temple. Base of skull, near crown of skull. That's not one blow.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's a hard question to answer without reonstructing the event. More than one. Probably more than five. Left temple, right temple. Base of skull, near crown of skull. That's not one blow.

That's waaay further toward the "pummeled end" than even a stretch of the evidence supports.

Is it consistent with the report that TM only had one tiny scrape on one knuckle?

 

[Cylinder]

That's waaay further toward the "pummeled end" than even a stretch of the evidence supports.

The injuries exist.

Is it consistent with the report that TM only had one tiny scrape on one knuckle?

It seems inconsistent with punching as the primary mechanism for many of the injuries to the back of the head, but I wouldn't expect much more from the injuries to the front. You can hit something pretty damn hard multiple times without gross injury to the knuckles or fingers. Hell, many of us has been in fistfights - your knuckles turn red, hurt like hell for about five minutes or so, then the redness and soreness kind of fades...

Pure conjecture on my part, but if you're being struck from above with your head on concrete, you could find a small abrasion on front and a larger injury to the back. There's no real way for me to draw any conclusion with the evidence we have, though.

ETA: You do realize that the lack of injury to Martin's hands make Zimmerman's claim stronger, right? It's pretty good evidence against the just a fistfight claim.

 

[johnny karate]

It's not my assertaion that Zimmerman was repeatedly punched, though I think that likely. My claim is that the injuries photographed weren't caused by a single punch to the nose and subsequent fall. It's like the old joke, I swear your honor, she fell onto the knife -- 12 times!

And I disagree. I think Zimmerman has injuries commensurate with someone being punched in the nose and then rolling around on the ground in an ensuing struggle. And Martin's virtually unmarked hands further indicate he did not deliver multiple blows.

A narrative being put forward (not necessarily by you) is that Zimmerman was pummeled and then repeatedly had his head bashed onto the ground. I haven't seen any evidence that supports this narrative.

Perhaps during the trial, forensic experts will be called to determine how well Zimmerman's injuries match up with his version of events.

I'm not claiming the SFD report was wrong - it's just not inclusive. Any rational person has to admit that the photos show more injuries than are documented in the report, right? They evaluated Zimmerman handcuffed in the back of an SPD vehicle. Not the ideal setting.

All due respect, but a layperson's conjecture based on looking at photos isn't particularly compelling. I'd rather just stick with the facts as determined by the medical documentation.

Am I'm not chastising you - I like to call this vigorous debate.

Fair enough.

 

[johnny karate]

You know, he keeps showing up every time they ask for him, without knowing in advance if he will ever get out. I would say that is better evidence of his flight risk than any speculation on his finances in the past. He has already been penalized 15K and returned to jail for a case that is nothing more than what appears to be a legal railroad. Thus far, no exculpatory evidence has even been allowed to be presented in his defense. Enough is enough.

Yeah, it's so unfair when people do dishonest, potentially illegal things and have to suffer the consequence. My heart breaks for all the misfortunes Zimmerman has to suffer because of his stupidity and lack of integrity.

As far as him showing up in court when he's supposed to, that's kind of like a car thief pointing out all the cars he didn't steal as proof that he won't steal a car next time he gets the chance.

The bottom line is, Zimmerman got caught deceiving the court regarding his assets so he could get a lower bond. The judge has no choice but to look at that with a certain amount of suspicion.

That travesty of justice is, in Florida, a legal substitution for a Grand Jury or preliminary hearing.

Someone was killed under circumstances not entirely clear. The guy who killed him now has to face a jury of his peers. He will be afforded every right and opportunity to defend himself, and will be a free man if the prosecution fails to prove him guilty.

Seems to me the system is working just fine.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, histrionics. Proven liar...

Which Zimmerman is.

...plots...

Which there was.

...conspiracy.

Which any reasonable person can clearly see. The only other explanation is that Zimmerman and his wife each had separate plans to deceive the court unknown to the other. If you want to go with that less likely possibility, it's certainly your prerogative. But I don't see how it mitigates anything that happened.

Same with the burglary issue. Legally, I don't think much (actually, anything) is there. But prima facie, those were stolen goods.

And by that exact same standard, Zimmerman and his wife colluded to deceive the court.

They obviously knew before hand, unless they were morons. Perhaps they were waiting on enigma to crack Zimmermans code ?

I still don't understand what makes you think the prosecution knew beforehand. What reason, prior to the bond hearing, would they have had to examine the transcripts from Zimmerman's conversations with his wife?

 

[GWCarver]

Yeah, it's so unfair when people do dishonest, potentially illegal things and have to suffer the consequence. My heart breaks for all the misfortunes Zimmerman has to suffer because of his stupidity and lack of integrity.

As far as him showing up in court when he's supposed to, that's kind of like a car thief pointing out all the cars he didn't steal as proof that he won't steal a car next time he gets the chance.

The bottom line is, Zimmerman got caught deceiving the court regarding his assets so he could get a lower bond. The judge has no choice but to look at that with a certain amount of suspicion.



Someone was killed under circumstances not entirely clear. The guy who killed him now has to face a jury of his peers. He will be afforded every right and opportunity to defend himself, and will be a free man if the prosecution fails to prove him guilty.

Seems to me the system is working just fine.

I see. The point of my post is Corey can put anyone in jail she feels like, for whatever charge she feels like, and there is nothing to stop her. No one should feel comfortable with that. The people in North Korea have to live with that kind of justice system, but I'll bet they don't like it. No one knows their opinion, though, because the government has so much power they are afraid to talk. Note that Dershowitz spoke out against Corey, and what did she do? According to Dershowitz, she tried to silence him with every threat available to her, quietly, by going through his employer.

The fact that you endorse what Corey is doing is puzzling, to say the least.

 

[Unabogie]

I see. The point of my post is Corey can put anyone in jail she feels like, for whatever charge she feels like, and there is nothing to stop her. No one should feel comfortable with that. The people in North Korea have to live with that kind of justice system, but I'll bet they don't like it. No one knows their opinion, though, because the government has so much power they are afraid to talk. Note that Dershowitz spoke out against Corey, and what did she do? According to Dershowitz, she tried to silence him with every threat available to her, quietly, by going through his employer.

The fact that you endorse what Corey is doing is puzzling, to say the least.

In North Korea, (or Nazi Germany, since you want to Godwin the thread) you have a justice system in which you get imprisoned when not doing anything wrong.

George Zimmerman shot and killed another human being.

The fact that you can't see the difference is puzzling, to say the least.