Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Dcdrac]

Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. In some people's minds, the villain in George's lie about his giant pile of money was actually the prosecutor. Since he didn't go out of his way to help Zimmerman and his wife explain away their lie to the court.

Again, if you come to this case with the desire to believe Zimmerman, then watermelon lean and gold teeth and assaulted bus drivers get uncritical acceptance, while Zimmerman and his racist rants and his history of violence and his material deception to the court are handwaved away.

They are going to be shocked if the guy is convicted. It'll be a travesty of justice!

It is simple really he has been caught lying about that what else?

I do nto beleive he is some racist nut and I don ot beleive he should be charged with murder, Manlsaughter yes from what i have seen released so far it is clear he acted recklelssly and someone ended up dead.

I have seen a lot of people draggng the victims name through the mud with scant evidence twitter feeds and the like and sources from right wing webpages, sure hes no angel but what teenager is?

So when presetned with clear evidence of GZs unrelaiblity its a bit hard to swallow that anything he says is relaible.

 

[LTC8K6]

At most, you have his wife caught lying in court.

Plus, GZ hasn't yet had a chance to answer.

This could all have been made clearer by having Friday's hearing with the Zimmermans present to respond, and given adequate time to respond.

Instead we got a one-sided presentation that may or may not have been accurate.

It's all a prosecution game anyway.

 

[Dan O.]

This could all have been made clearer by having Friday's hearing with the Zimmermans present to respond, and given adequate time to respond.

Or even better, if George was "present" at the original bond hearing.

 

[LTC8K6]

GZ's bond possibly wouldn't even be raised, since the money really can't be used for bond since shortly after O'mara learned of it. GZ relinquished control of it shortly after telling O'mara about it. It's been transferred to a trust by O'mara, as required by FL law.

http://www.floridabar.org/divexe/rrtfb.nsf/FV/6D5B076E51CCBC9985257172004C0105

 

[johnny karate]

I must say the same about Johnny Karate as well. JK had a couple great posts yesterday. It seems as if you two have gravitated towards the center from opposite sides.

JK did make a great post today. I'm still trying to figure out how to rebut part of it. (Don't tell him I said that. ) I actually enjoy the challenge of responding to posts that buckle my knees the first time I read them. It means I am about to advance my knowledge of the case, although the possibility exists it may not be a pleasant experience.

Cheers, folks.

And just to offer one last clarification regarding the motion dismissal: I wasn't trying to play any games. There seemed to be genuine confusion about what motion or motions there were, and whether or not one or any of them had been dismissed.

Apparently, we have one motion (the motion to revoke bond) with two parts. Those parts at times got conflated with the actual motion itself. And that created the confusion.

So, to be clear: The state filed one motion. The motion for revocation of Zimmerman's bond.

And that motion was granted.

Now perhaps all the nonsense about the judge laughing the prosecution out of court, or the prosecution being stupid, can stop.

 

[Dan O.]

O'Mara took deliberate steps to shield the money after learning that his client failed to disclose it at the bond hearing. What does Florida law have to say about that?

 

[johnny karate]

I believe that GZ has demonstrated yet again how bright he is. Which is to say, not very. While this does bite him in the ass with regards to having his bond revoked, I think it actually overall helps him. As I have previously stated, I think if GZ tried to lie about events the night of the shooting, he would have been easily caught. Too many details , witnesses , and physical evidence all give ample opportunity to catch a lie. Especially from someone who is clearly not an accomplished liar. Really, is anyone going to dispute that and argue on behalf of GZ, evil genius ?

How about George Zimmerman, lucky bastard? Sometimes even the stupidest, most inept liars catch a break. And in the final analysis, "He must be telling the truth because he's too stupid to tell a convincing lie" isn't a particularly compelling defense.

While I think GZ and his wife were dishonest (via omission, they purposely omitted the paypal information) , I think the state was playing games, too. The state clearly knew about the paypal account, and had a good idea how much money was in there. They also knew about the second passport, yet they stood by and let the Judge allow bond, and watched GZ walk free ? If it is so egregious that GZ be out on bond, why did they stand by and allow it ? The state was not interested in making sure the court knew all the facts, they were interested in playing gotcha. I'm not arguing that it's the SA job to fill out GZ bond application for him, but I am sure they had a copy, noted there was no mention of the paypal account, and yet didn't bring the evidence they had to the Judges attention at the bond hearing. I wonder why ?

That's all an interesting theory, but you know what Zimmerman could have done to foil the prosecution's evil machinations? Tell the truth. But he didn't. And now he's sitting in a jail cell. The fault is entirely his own.

Also - for all this Shelly Zimmerman perjury talk ... how come I don't hear any perjury talk about detective gilbreath ? Clearly, as lead detective, it is his job to have reviewed the contents of the Zimmerman file. And we found out that GZ medical records from his visit to the doctor the day after the shooting were already in that file. I assume MOM knew that, since it must have been GZ who gave them a copy, and that's why he went down that road when questioning Gilbreath, who denied knowing about it. How is that possible ? To be clear, I don't expect anyone to be filing any perjury charges, on SZ, GZ, or Det. Gilbreath. The point is, it's not one sides job to make it easier for the other side. If the question is "do you know how much is in the account" you say "no" - becuase technically you don't know the exact amount. The same type of 'evasive' answering Gilbreath did on the stand. I can imagine SZ thought she was being 'technically honest', but I don't really know.

Zimmerman's wife was caught dead to rights. The prosecution produced transcripts of a conversation she had with her husband acknowledging information she would later deny knowing under oath.

I'm not aware that any such incriminating evidence exists in regards to Gilbreath.

I don't blame GZ or his wife for thier 'dishonesty' though, I blame MOM for not stopping them. MOM has the experience and expertise to guide GZ and his family through the bond process. He knew about the paypal accounts, it was his responsibility to make sure everything was filled out by/for his client appropriately, and to anticpate what the SA would do. If anything, the reason they ddin't talk about the Paypal I would think would be guidance from MOM. If MOM insuated - don't speak of it, don't use, and that should be ok... To me, that helps explain why they went to all the trouble they did to secure a mortgage on the parents home, etc, to pay the bond. I have not seen anyone else willing to try to explain why they didn't just use all their paypal money to pay the bond. I think perhaps that also explains the addition to the GZ legal team, MOM is getting in over his head ?

I think O'mara bears some culpability as well, and that he is coming off a lot sleazier than some people in this thread seem willing to acknowledge.

It's been an interesting distraction. I think at the end of the day, that's all it will be, though. We may get another look at GZ on the stand if he speaks for himself at a bond hearing. I don't think the state gets free reign to ask him about anything they want, I think it will be narrowly directed at financial issues pertaining to his bond, but it might give us more insight into exactly how poorly GZ will do on the stand. (yes, I don't think he has a chance of ever doing well, just not too poorly).

The central question is how damaging this is to Zimmerman's credibility (I say "very"), and how that impact his trial (I don't know).

Also, what happened to round 2 of discovery from last thursday ? Wasn't there already more information OK'ed to be released ? And didn't Judje Lester have some comment that the majority of material has already been released ?

I believe the judge was leaning towards releasing the remaining evidence, but wanted to take 30 days to render his decision.

 

[johnny karate]

At most, you have his wife caught lying in court.

Plus, GZ hasn't yet had a chance to answer.

This could all have been made clearer by having Friday's hearing with the Zimmermans present to respond, and given adequate time to respond.

Instead we got a one-sided presentation that may or may not have been accurate.

It's all a prosecution game anyway.

That Zimmerman was kind enough to let them win in rather decisive fashion via his own idiocy and dishonesty.

Here's a tip for the kids at home: Don't conspire to deceive a court of law. Because you never know what dastardly trap lies in wait for you if you do.

GZ's bond possibly wouldn't even be raised, since the money really can't be used for bond since shortly after O'mara learned of it. GZ relinquished control of it shortly after telling O'mara about it. It's been transferred to a trust by O'mara, as required by FL law.

http://www.floridabar.org/divexe/rrtfb.nsf/FV/6D5B076E51CCBC9985257172004C0105

It will be interesting to see how the judge responds to that.

"Well, Your Honor, it's a funny thing... immediately after lying to you about the existence of all this money, we purposely arranged to make that money inaccessible. So... can I go home now?"

 

[TheL8Elvis]

How about George Zimmerman, lucky bastard? Sometimes even the stupidest, most inept liars catch a break. And in the final analysis, "He must be telling the truth because he's too stupid to tell a convincing lie" isn't a particularly compelling defense.

It's not intended to be his only defense, or to be taken by itself, but it is one more piece of evidence that I feel supports his defense in total.

That's all an interesting theory, but you know what Zimmerman could have done to foil the prosecution's evil machinations? Tell the truth. But he didn't. And now he's sitting in a jail cell. The fault is entirely his own.

It's not really an attempt to shift blame. Just an observation that the SA could have done more if they desired.

Zimmerman's wife was caught dead to rights. The prosecution produced transcripts of a conversation she had with her husband acknowledging information she would later deny knowing under oath.

I'm not aware that any such incriminating evidence exists in regards to Gilbreath.

Again, I'm not sure the SA could prove SZ intent to commit perjury from her testimony. I guess we'll know if they move ahead in prosecuting her , eh ?
As for Gilbreath ... really ? He was one of the lead investigators. Serino referenced GZ medical records and broken nose in his report. GZ medical records were included. I'm very incredulous of the idea that Gilbreath could be both a lead investigator and ignorant of GZ broken nose. Yet he denied knowledge of it under oath. That seems as straight forward to me as the info about SZ....

I think O'mara bears some culpability as well, and that he is coming off a lot sleazier than some people in this thread seem willing to acknowledge.

The central question is how damaging this is to Zimmerman's credibility (I say "very"), and how that impact his trial (I don't know).

I believe the judge was leaning towards releasing the remaining evidence, but wanted to take 30 days to render his decision.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/41053/5361

More discovery in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case will be disclosed to the media on May 31. On June 1, Judge Lester will hold a hearing on the state's motion to seal and prevent public release of some of the discovery. Notice of the hearing was provided to lawyers for the media (order here) who have previously intervened in the case objecting to the state's withholding of information.

I was just curious to what happened to the may 31st thing

 

[bookworm]

Thanks GWC, you've been on the ball the past couple days, and you've been trying to be very fair as far as I can tell. (Yes there was an implied "compared to how I remember you 100 of your posts ago" in that sentence. ).

And more polite than I have been recently I believe. Keep it up.

I must say the same about Johnny Karate as well. JK had a couple great posts yesterday. It seems as if you two have gravitated towards the center from opposite sides.

Sorry if I have personalized anything in this post, it's all meant to be a compliment!

ETA: Wow I totally use that smiley too often.

Also, I don't mean to imply that I am in the center or always fair. It's very hard to do. I can only try the best I can.

I think I should restate something some of us said hundreds of pages and a few months ago:

If Z is telling the truth about the all important 1 or 2 minutes, and everything went down just like he said, it would be absolutely horrific for him to be convicted.

I believe the saying goes something like "it's better to set 100 guilty people free than to send 1 innocent person to jail".

Nice post! I agree with you 100%. It does become hard sometimes to be absolutely impartial and not get angry. I'll take this opportunity to say that my POV is that if it's proven that Zimmerman did start the actual fight then I believe he should be convicted of manslaughter. Your last sentence is the reason I maintain that he is innocent until proven guilty and there has been nothing convincing enough to me to make me think otherwise.

Thanks again for the great summation.

 

[bookworm]

It is simple really he has been caught lying about that what else?

I do nto beleive he is some racist nut and I don ot beleive he should be charged with murder, Manlsaughter yes from what i have seen released so far it is clear he acted recklelssly and someone ended up dead.

I have seen a lot of people draggng the victims name through the mud with scant evidence twitter feeds and the like and sources from right wing webpages, sure hes no angel but what teenager is?

So when presetned with clear evidence of GZs unrelaiblity its a bit hard to swallow that anything he says is relaible.

I don't approve of dragging TM through the mud any more than I approve of dragging GZ through the mud. I personally feel that the type of teenager TM APPEARS to have grown into makes it much more possible that he did react in anger and attack Zimmerman first, though.

 

[johnny karate]

Again, I'm not sure the SA could prove SZ intent to commit perjury from her testimony. I guess we'll know if they move ahead in prosecuting her , eh ?
As for Gilbreath ... really ? He was one of the lead investigators. Serino referenced GZ medical records and broken nose in his report. GZ medical records were included. I'm very incredulous of the idea that Gilbreath could be both a lead investigator and ignorant of GZ broken nose. Yet he denied knowledge of it under oath. That seems as straight forward to me as the info about SZ....

It's not even remotely the same thing. There is demonstrable proof that Zimmerman's wife lied on the stand, as I outlined in this post.

When or if the prosecution might charge her with perjury is a separate question, and one for which I have no answer.

Conversely, there is no evidence that Gilbreath lied on the stand. Only speculation. And I'm pretty sure speculation isn't enough to warrant a perjury charge.

 

[BenBurch]

...

If Z is telling the truth about the all important 1 or 2 minutes, and everything went down just like he said, it would be absolutely horrific for him to be convicted.

I believe the saying goes something like "it's better to set 100 guilty people free than to send 1 innocent person to jail".

Almost.

You missed one thing utterly material to guilt; Was the force proportional to the threat? If the response was disproportionate, he's guilty no matter how it went down.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know I have missed a lot and now I am asking people to fill me in. I get that the judge revoked the bond but I don't fully understand the deception. IIRC they didn't deny the fund existed, it was made abundantly clear to the court that there was a fund and there was money in the fund. They testified that the brother was handling the fund so he was the one to ask about how much was in there. How does failure to follow up questioning the brother equate to lying on the part of GZ?

Turns out George and his wife had a recorded telephone call before the bail hearing where they discussed how much money was in the account and where to hide Georgie's extra passport he also said was lost.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yahoo News

The motion shows that Shelley Zimmerman testified on April 20 that she didn't know how much money was raised through Zimmerman's paypal donations, and "to [her] knowledge" they wouldn't be able to afford a bond payment. In transcripts from recorded conversations that took place while George was still in jail a week before, George instructs Shelley to go to the bank and take control of his account. In another call, Shelley is at the bank and the teller takes the phone to get a security code from George so he could authorize Shelley's control of the account. Shelley even says at one point, "Not going to say any personal information since it's recorded." It does appear that the Zimmermans did speak in some kind of "code," like the prosectors said yesterday. Bank statements show the family had access to $135,000 in cash on the day before the bond hearing, but their conversations never speak in denominations over $100.

In regards to Zimmerman's passport mix up, the motion uses state department records to prove the existence of a second passport. Records show Zimmerman applied for a second passport in 2004 because the passport he surrendered to the judge "was lost or stolen." Zimmerman was granted a new passport that wouldn't expire until 2014. In a recorded phone call from a few days before the April 20 bond hearing, George and Shelley talked about the passport:
Defendant: Do you know what? I think my passport is in that bag.
Shelley Zimmerman: I have one for you in a safety deposit box...
Defendant: OK, you hold on to that.
Shelley Zimmerman: For you...
It's going to be pretty difficult for Zimmerman's attorney to argue he's not a flight risk now.

 

[sgtbaker]

Turns out George and his wife had a recorded telephone call before the bail hearing where they discussed how much money was in the account and where to hide Georgie's extra passport he also said was lost.

Did they discuss actual amounts, though? That is what I am asking. I only saw one sentence quoted from that conversation and it was nonspecific. The fact that there was a fund is not in question.

The passport is a non issue since he relinquished the second one to his attorney before the issue came up in court.

 

[sgtbaker]

Yahoo News

That makes no sense. If the knew the call was being recorded, why would they discuss their intent to deceive on the call? Was that their personal account or the account with the funds in it?

 

[crimresearch]

http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2012/6/3/14539/85018/66#66

And of course, how could a mere judge know about that Supreme Court ruling against being forced to incriminate oneself in a pretrial hearing (which was cited here hundreds of posts ago)?

Except that he never said that Zimmerman would be forced to testify against himself, he said that he couldn't accept O'Mara's *speculation* on what Zimmerman was 'maybe' thinking, instead of hearing it from Zimmerman himself... (also pointed out here repeatedly)

Which is why he said Zimmerman could request a new bond hearing if he chose to do so.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Turns out George and his wife had a recorded telephone call before the bail hearing where they discussed how much money was in the account and where to hide Georgie's extra passport he also said was lost.

You might want to try reading back a few pages. I think that has been the topic of discussion in the thread since friday.

 

[crimresearch]

Yahoo News

Wow that's amazing news.

BTW... The FBI experts both say it is impossible to know from audio over cell phones in the distance which party was screaming. That was in the document release posted here a while back.

Oh yes, and the actual injuries to Zimmerman's head are documented from MDs and EMS as well.

As a licensed medical professional and self proclaimed expert on those exact subjects, with your own medical practice, you are on record here as repeatedly saying they were wrong.

I'm sure you'll be backing that up with facts any old year now, right?

Or are you still in 'I don't provide proof' mode?