General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dogzilla]

All you have to do is move to Canada, become Canadian, then walk into a Jewish bar and repeat the arguments you're making here. The Public Health Care system will give you a wheelchair free.

JEWISH bar?!?! WTF?!?

 

[Clayton Moore]

JEWISH bar?!?! WTF?!?

I know. ahahhahahahah

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . during World War II there was a war going on. . . .

And how does that empty quip explain the contents of the Jaeger Report, the Ereignismeldungen, or Meldung 51?

Or this typical day in the life of the Wehrmacht, back to Nick's point concerning Greece? In mid-August 1943, in the village of Komeno in Greece, 12th Company, 98th Regiment, 1st Mountain Division, during Operation Augustus, under the command of Lieutenant Roser, encircled the town and killed 317 village inhabitants (of all ages and including women), over half the town's population. Support troops then moved in and looted the town of livestock, poultry, and various useful articles.

This atrocity was investigated by Austrian police between 1971 and 1973, more than a quarter century after it occurred. Nearly every member of 12th Company still alive at that time was interviewed; nearly every one of them, all separately and with virtually no possibility of coordinating testimony, gave the same basic story concerning the operation. There were some differences in detail (for example, Roser was commonly cited as ordering that the troop "shoot everyone and leave nothing standing," or words to that effect, but the roles of the battalion commander and second in command were not clear from the interviews).

Nearly every soldier interviewed also mentioned that - as the action had included the murder of women and children - there had been at the time widespread discussion throughout the unit about the murders. Many participants were upset ("sickened," "depressed," disgraced), according to their postwar recollection. None denied participating, none denied the cold-blooded murders of innocent civilians, none denied obeying the order to fire. Most of those interviewed recalled the incident as a reprisal action against a defenseless and unarmed village, the victims not firing a single shot or resisting in any way.

And none were partaking in Dogzilla's comforting illusions and aphorisms (it was just a war and so forth), nor of opportunities to weasel and lie, to make excuses, nor testifying because of thought crimes laws or supposed postwar torture or other brutality exacted against the perpetrators to line up their accounts behind an evolving Hoax. No, the soldiers didn't resort to "the brutality of war" or "heat of pursuit" arguments, as the operation was planned and organized, with the canteen staff providing rice pudding and fruit compote before the unit returned to camp. There wasn't a Jew in the picture, no Zionist machinations, no Israel lobby, no university chairs endowed by Big Jew Money. Nor, in this case, that of a so-called antipartisan action in remote Greece, was there an evolved Hoax overwriting memory (in fact, in the early 1970s the myth ran the other way, with the Wehrmacht still popularly presented as unstained). Just the squalid facts, recalled by perpetrators, about Germany's dirty war against the occupied populations. Heink's glorious, heroic, unstained Wehrmacht doing its daily business in an armpit of the war.

Perhaps the soldiers were lying about their reaction to the atrocity? That an atrocity had occurred at all? Sadly, for our deniers' cherished delusions, we have a contemporaneous document from the company's chaplain, in which he wrote a complaint to divisional commander General von Stettner stating that the mass killing of women and children during operations against the so-called bands was producing a difficult inner burden on the conscience of many men, a document confirming both the atrocity and the men's later recall of it. Here is a strong record of the violence and brutality which a single Wehrmacht company was capable of on a single day in an obscure mountain village in Greece against Greek villagers, not the sort of action launched against the greatest satanic force in human history, the author and instigator of the war, its wire puller, the worst enemy of the German Volk, world Jews. Deniers may want to prettify their Wehrmacht and Hitler and the SS and the whole lot of them: they do so in purposeful ignorance of the situation, the actions undertaken, the reasoning adduced, and the evidence.

To put it simply, if a company could wipe out the men, women, and children of this little village in Greece - who might or might not have given a few trinkets to local partisans - what would the whole Wehrmacht, the EGs, police battalions, HSSPF's and the whole apparatus of nazi force contemplate and undertake against the World Enemy? A delousing at a way station, a fairly polite resettlement opportunity, hospital stays during the final stages of the war, benign ethnic cleansing, a few rogue operations like Abu Ghraib? Seriously? No, the lurkers are not stupid as our deniers imagine them to be - no one is falling for the quips, rhetoric, personal incredulity, and strawmen that they substitute for arguments and thought.

 

[Border Reiver]

I know. ahahhahahahah

As an alternate I would suggest any military mess or Royal Canadian Legion.

 

[Dogzilla]

The audacity of liars is the power of imprinting.

Lurker alert.

Nobody knew of the alleged gas chamber just yards away? No one noticed the activity of all the bald headed people just yards away? No one heard the agonizing screams of Jewish children, women, and men just yards away?

Yeah, and I'm sure his father would have the family living and his children playing a few yards away from a building where odorless highly toxic gas was being deployed on a regular basis. No danger from accidental leakage there. Or how about the flames leaping from the chimney and the ash of Jews leaving the camp raining down on the playground like we saw in Schindler's List? Breathing that can't be good for you. And where did little Rainer Hoess live when he was a child? It certainly wasn't Germany because that family heirloom-- the fireproof chest with a large swastika on the lid--would be illegal to own even today. I'm surprised the British or the Poles or the Russians even gave something like that back to the family.

Don't these reporters do any fact checking before they start making up stuff?

This stupid woman is so brainwashed(brain dead) she hates her own family.

Don't say brain dead. She's been brainwashed but that's beyond her control.

 

[Dogzilla]

And how does that empty quip explain the contents of the Jaeger Report, the Ereignismeldungen, or Meldung 51?

So now you're saying that Jaegoff report or whatever you call it covers German army activity in Greece? That's what we were talking about.

 

[TSR]

Yeah, and I'm sure his father would have the family living and his children playing a few yards away from a building where odorless highly toxic gas was being deployed on a regular basis. No danger from accidental leakage there.

No more so than from the tents the A version of the d*mned stuff was manufactured to work in.

Or how about the flames leaping from the chimney and the ash of Jews leaving the camp raining down on the playground like we saw in Schindler's List? Breathing that can't be good for you.

How would the flames affect anything not directly above the chimneys?

Schindler's List? I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion about history, not Hollywood...

And where did little Rainer Hoess live when he was a child? It certainly wasn't Germany because that family heirloom-- the fireproof chest with a large swastika on the lid--would be illegal to own even today.

You can, of course, cite the law that states this?

No?

Hey CM: here's another lie for you *not* whine about.

I'm surprised the British or the Poles or the Russians even gave something like that back to the family.

You have any of that -- you know -- evidence thingy that this item was in British, Polish or Soviet custody at any time?

Don't these reporters do any fact checking before they start making up stuff?

Far more often than you do, by all indications.

Don't say brain dead. She's been brainwashed but that's beyond her control.

Got any of that, you know, evidence thingy that any such thing has happened, other than your visceral need to minimize and dismiss the very clear indications that she was raised believing a sanitized version of her family history, and later -- on her own initiative -- learned better?

Or is it just that you feel free to slander her because no one would believe you and so no damages could be collected?

Way to go, DZ: your posts have moved from p*ssing on the dead to p*ssing on their living relatives -- what's next for you? Their pets? Their houseplants? No wait, I know: their neighbors...

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I read some alerts that there are plans for a new big screen movie about Sobibor ...

From the others I expected nothing, maybe at best a shrug with the standard reaction "The book is better"*, but, since you demonstrably don't like books and are well known for your love of movies and Hollywood, I must say I'm a little surprised by your lack of response, ClaytonMoore.

*
A Polish book, by Marek Bem:
http://www.muzeumwlodawa.pl/mplw/sobibor-niemiecki_osrodek_zaglady.html

From Dutch editions of books by Jules Schelvis:
"De werkzaamheden aan de ondergrondse fabriek werden begin November 1944 gestaakt omdat de geallieerde legers in hoog tempo oprukten. Tezelfder tijd werd het SS-Arbeitslager Vaihingen tot SS-Erholungslager verheven."
Vernietigingskamp Sobibor, p.144

"Nog voor de chauffeur zijn auto bij het Erholungslager Vaihingen tot stilstand had gebracht zag ik vanuit de laadbak de doden het kamp uitdragen. Ze hadden niet de behandeling gekregen die men van een kamp met zo een naam mocht verwachten. Het miste dat in een dergelijk kamp aanwezig moest zijn waren versterkende middelen, geneeskundige verzorging en reinheid. Het zou spoedig duidelijk worden dat hier van geen van drieën sprake was."
Binnen de Poorten, p.119
http://www.stichtingsobibor.nl/publicaties/boeken

Jules Schelvis dedicated Binnen de Poorten as follows "Aan Leo de Vries, die gedurende twee jaar mijn trouwe vriend in de kampen is geweest. Kort voor de bevrijding is hij aan uitputting gestorven."
Leo de Vries, who succumbed during the death march from Kochendorf to Dachau after being separated from Dhr. Schelvis in Unterriexingen, is listed among the victims of the Shoah. Is that unfair on Germany, ClaytonMoore?
18 people who set foot in Nazi-occupied Poland after getting off the trains from Westerbork to Sobibor returned to the Netherlands. Is it unfair to blame the death of the other 34.313 people on Nazi-Germany, ClaytonMoore?

 

[LemmyCaution]

So now you're saying that Jaegoff report or whatever you call it covers German army activity in Greece? That's what we were talking about.

Actually, not. We were discussing your concept that there was a war going on in the early 1940s and that the deaths of Jews in Europe during those years can be attributed to the ordinary fallout from the war. You had been asked, in fact, about your statement from days ago about WWII here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8304700&postcount=2005

You replied here, with no mention of Greece: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8311720&postcount=2018

Then Nick responded with his joke about Greece, as an example of German war conduct, making the point, through this example, that during WWII more happened than military engagements in which people happened to get caught up.

You replied, again with the concept that there was a war going on, nothing more, and that the Greeks were part of it, too: "I guess the Greeks have realized that, as someone once said, during World War II there was a war going on."

And I commented on the main point - expressed now in the form of your quip that "during World War II there was a war going on" - and then, of course, at some length on the example of Greece.

Jesus Christ.

P.S. I do not call it the Jagger Report or the Jaegoff report but the Jaeger Report, after the name of the man who prepared and submitted it and as historians and even revisionists do. Is practiced and self-congratulatory obtuseness now a prerequisite for deniers? Jesus Christ.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The audacity of liars is the power of imprinting.

Lurker alert.

Nobody knew of the alleged gas chamber just yards away? No one noticed the activity of all the bald headed people just yards away? No one heard the agonizing screams of Jewish children, women, and men just yards away?


Fanning the flames of Holocaust lies. It's what the MSM does. I'm sure that if you did a graph of articles that mentioned the Holocaust you would become aware that they were managed to keep the public well saturated with Holocaust misinformation and Holocaust lies and anti German hate.

This stupid woman is so brainwashed(brain dead) she hates her own family.

Your posts have the highest anger-to-content ratio that I've seen in the CT/911Ct section.

 

[Dcdrac]

CM and reality do not seem to coincide.....

 

[LemmyCaution]

Because they don't want to go to thought prison.

German medical professionals try to avoid thought prison: http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-doctors-apologize-for-holocaust-horrors?lite
The real Germany vs Clayton's invented place . . .

 

[Dcdrac]

CM have you ever been to Deautschland?

 

[OCaptain]

The audacity of liars is the power of imprinting.

Lurker alert.

Nobody knew of the alleged gas chamber just yards away? No one noticed the activity of all the bald headed people just yards away? No one heard the agonizing screams of Jewish children, women, and men just yards away?


Fanning the flames of Holocaust lies. It's what the MSM does. I'm sure that if you did a graph of articles that mentioned the Holocaust you would become aware that they were managed to keep the public well saturated with Holocaust misinformation and Holocaust lies and anti German hate.

This stupid woman is so brainwashed(brain dead) she hates her own family.

That post pretty much sums up your denier debate tactics - incredulity.

What?
Could they?
Would they?
Nobody knew?
Can't drive?
Whhhhuuu??

 

[000063]

Actually the first thing listed is this reply, Spielberg's Host is now number two. Google seems to really like anything people say on JREF.

Which has what to do with the debate?

JEWISH bar?!?! WTF?!?

You're kind of missing the point of the joke; Clay can get stomped into a mudhole and get a wheelchair just by making his claims to the face of actual Jewish people.

Yeah, and I'm sure his father would have the family living and his children playing a few yards away from a building where odorless highly toxic gas was being deployed on a regular basis. No danger from accidental leakage there.

1. Keep the kids inside.
2. The gas would pose more of an immediate danger to soldiers nearby.

Or how about the flames leaping from the chimney and the ash of Jews leaving the camp raining down on the playground like we saw in Schindler's List?

This would be the same movie Clay keeps dismissing as a lie, right? What evidence do you have that the scene is factual, not a dramatization? Are you going to assert that Germany was actually black and white?

Breathing that can't be good for you.

Probably not. Why doncha prove it?

And where did little Rainer Hoess live when he was a child? It certainly wasn't Germany because that family heirloom-- the fireproof chest with a large swastika on the lid--would be illegal to own even today.

If they found it.

I'm surprised the British or the Poles or the Russians even gave something like that back to the family.

Incredulity.

Don't these reporters do any fact checking before they start making up stuff?

You haven't actually proved anything, just asked a lot of rhetorical questions.

Don't say brain dead. She's been brainwashed but that's beyond her control.

Prove it.

Incidentally, you contradicted Clay's implication that the story was that "no one knew about the gas chambers". Your points, such as they are, actually depend on Dear Old Opa knowing about the gas chambers.

 

[000063]

It's because they mistake Sardonicism for actual wit and intelligence, instead of an indication of their presence. It's actually pretty common.

That post pretty much sums up your denier debate tactics - incredulity.

And straw men.

What?
Could they?
Would they?
Nobody knew?
Can't drive?
Whhhhuuu??

 

[dafydd]

So veiled I didn't even know I'd made one.

I just thought my last paragraph was a wee bit sarcastic...but if you choose to be threatened by it there is little I can do about it.

Nazis are only familiar with unveiled threats.

 

[Belz...]

Is that some sort of veiled threat?

Did you even read the rest of the post... like... the first sentence ?

Because they don't want to go to thought prison.

Uh-huh. Nice speculation.

saturated with Holocaust misinformation and Holocaust lies and anti German hate

Funny statement, considering that holocaust denial stems from jew hate.

 

[Border Reiver]

Is that some sort of veiled threat?

By the by,

If you're still feeling threatened, I believe there are a couple of processes that you may avail yourself of.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yeah, and I'm sure his father would have the family living and his children playing a few yards away from a building where odorless highly toxic gas was being deployed on a regular basis. No danger from accidental leakage there. Or how about the flames leaping from the chimney and the ash of Jews leaving the camp raining down on the playground like we saw in Schindler's List? Breathing that can't be good for you. And where did little Rainer Hoess live when he was a child? It certainly wasn't Germany because that family heirloom-- the fireproof chest with a large swastika on the lid--would be illegal to own even today. I'm surprised the British or the Poles or the Russians even gave something like that back to the family.

Don't these reporters do any fact checking before they start making up stuff?




Don't say brain dead. She's been brainwashed but that's beyond her control.

Don't forget that those inmates would be docile as hell with all the alleged brutality and atrocities taking place 24/7.