• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Respecting Christians

I certainly wouldn't want unnecessarily to speak for Avalon here, but I think what some people don't get about his positjon is that for him at least, belief is not optional. For us skeptics it is, and thus we can consistently say that "belief in x" is deplorable or nasty, but for him and others like him, it's simply a matter of truly thinking such and such is true. He may even wish it weren't, but in true belief this is not an option. You can't say "I wish Jesus were nicer" if you are truly convinced you know what's what! I suspect Avalon of being nicer than his religion is. Too bad for both.
 
Last edited:
westprog said:
It's atheist fundamentalism. It's a very odd thing, not normally encountered in the wild, but it's all over JREF. Part of the bible-based belief system of atheist fundamentalists is that Christians think that all atheists will go to hell and be tormented forever, and they are OK with it. It's based on faith rather than evidence.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by atheist fudamentalism. My atheist point of view has nothing to do with the bible or any other so-called holy book. Christians are atheists too, I am just atheistic towards one more religion that they are.
 
Darth Rotor said:
Which is a result of your choice to not wish to be with God.
So, you'll be elsewhere. You may not even suffer, if you don't want to be in His presence. I think some of the presumption of suffering is based on the idea that all people more or less want to be in God's presence, but won't do the hard work to get there.

That presumption gets a little pear shaped when people (and even a few of the angels waaaaaaaaaay back) simply want nothing to do with God.

So, you are the one condoning your own suffering, if that suffering is to be had.

For stilicho: for that post, you are my hero for the week. :-)
Click to expand...

I certainly don't want to be in the presence of the god of the bible. As described in the bible, he is extraordinarily evil. Why would I want to spend eternity with him? And if he makes me suffer forever because of this, he is even more evil.

Good thing all this crap isn't real.
 
bruto said:
I certainly wouldn't want unnecessarily to speak for Avalon here, but I think what some people don't get about his positjon is that for him at least, belief is not optional. For us skeptics it is, and thus we can consistently say that "belief in x" is deplorable or nasty, but for him and others like him, it's simply a matter of truly thinking such and such is true. He may even wish it weren't, but in true belief this is not an option. You can't say "I wish Jesus were nicer" if you are truly convinced you know what's what! I suspect Avalon of being nicer than his religion is. Too bad for both.
Click to expand...
He's stated as much directly, so I'm certain that's the case. However, it doesn't constitute an excuse. Deplorable acts that aren't optional for the victims are usually ranked among the more deplorable, and good men looking the other way comes closest to cowardice.
 
Believing bad things to be true, and wanting to change them, is neither deplorable or cowardice.

It's fine that you don't believe that bad things are true, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I know them to be true, that I want them to be.
 
AvalonXQ said:
This deserves its own thread.

Short answer -- the universe is set up to give you a free choice.

God's foreknowledge of the outcome in no way restricts the free choice; there is no contradiction between omniscience and free will, and the only way you get to one is by just deciding that there is one.
Click to expand...

That's not even wrong.

Let's assume for giggles that I'm god. Me, I am the universe's creator.

Now lets say I decide to look at something I do so love to bring up as a basic example in this argument, I choose to investigate in detail what you are going to have for lunch. Let's say you go to a subway, and you know you want either ham or turkey. Now, if there were free will, you would have an absolute choice to pick either one, correct?

But I'm god and I know that you will pick ham. I know that you will pick ham today, and I've known it since before the stars were formed and before any humans walked the earth, let alone yourself. I know that on the 24th of May, 2012, you AvalonXQ go into a subway and buy a footlong ham sandwich.

How can you then pick turkey? You can't, because I know you will pick ham. Oh, you have the illusion of choice, because you could easily pick turkey in your own mind, but remember I am utterly infallible and can see what you will do every second of your life before you do it, and I knew it before there even was a you to do those things.

You are presented with a kind of equation here.

Either A or B, if A, then X, if B, then Y.

So A=X B=Y.

But the answer IS Y. It can't be X. You can't pick ham and more than you can choose to go to Macdonalds because I know, with absolutely perfect and infallible clarity that you ARE going to have a ham sandwich.

Explain to me, in other words, if the answer of ham is already known before you were even born, how you can possibly have a free choice?

Remember, you can't say "you know I'll pick ham because you know what the result of my free will choice will be" because having the answer negates choice because no other possible option can be picked.

So go on, explain it to me. I'm listening.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Believing bad things to be true, and wanting to change them, is neither deplorable or cowardice.

It's fine that you don't believe that bad things are true, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I know them to be true, that I want them to be.
Click to expand...
Well, you aren't exactly trying very hard. The least you could do is join the resistance.

I've got a contract right here.
 
Tricky said:
Exactly. Omnescience and free-will are mutually exclusive concepts.
Click to expand...

No, they're really not. Knowing my choice exerts no force on that choice, nor does ignorance have any relationship to decision-making capabilities.
 
AvalonXQ said:
No, they're really not. Knowing my choice exerts no force on that choice,
Click to expand...

It does if the "choice" you made was pre-determined, and if it was already known it would have to be.

You can't have it both ways Avalon. If god knows you will pick X you cannot pick not X, because by picking not X god would be wrong, and he can't be wrong.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
It does if the "choice" you made was pre-determined, and if it was already known it would have to be.

You can't have it both ways Avalon. If god knows you will pick X you cannot pick not X, because by picking not X god would be wrong, and he can't be wrong.
Click to expand...

God knows you will pick X.

You can still pick not-X.

You will pick X, but nothing forces you to.
 
Our favourite apologise, Dr William Lane Craig, explains the free will thing by saying that God is like an infallible barometer. He doesn't set the weather, but he knows what will happen and can predict it there. That seems to be the typical response.

westprog said:
That is pretty funny. How can you respect people when they won't even listen to being told what their beliefs are?
Click to expand...

You're about four light-years behind the discussion.

AvalonXQ said:
Believing bad things to be true, and wanting to change them, is neither deplorable or cowardice.

It's fine that you don't believe that bad things are true, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I know them to be true, that I want them to be.
Click to expand...

So, you think that God's judgement is sometimes unjust or imperfect? You did say Hell was an appropriate punishment earlier, so I'm intrigued as to how, exactly, you've made such a turnaround. Otherwise, I'm still not sure why you keep reiterating your position.
 
Tricky said:
Exactly. Omnescience and free-will are mutually exclusive concepts.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Just because I knew my kid was going to sneak out of the house to visit her boyfriend doesn't mean she has no free will. It only means I understand her motivations better than she thinks she does.
 
Mycroft said:
Not necessarily. Just because I knew my kid was going to sneak out of the house to visit her boyfriend doesn't mean she has no free will. It only means I understand her motivations better than she thinks she does.
Click to expand...

Do you know every decision she will make throughout her life?
 
arthwollipot said:
I respect people. Unless they give me some reason not to. Their religion has nothing to do with whether I respect them or not. Their behaviour does. Some of that behaviour may be informed by their religion, some of it perhaps not. Regardless, it isn't what they believe that I take into consideration. It's how they act.
Click to expand...

I wish, perhaps, that I could say the same. My father, as an example, believed that "females" were beneath him and all men and as "soon as they are old enough to bleed they are old enough to be butchered" is too repulsive to me to NOT take his beliefs into account.

So, even when he "behaved" as a perfect gentleman on occasion, I did not respect him. I don't see that POV as relevant. At least not always. Or maybe it just is not to me, personally.

I do see your point, tho, but I cannot always agree with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom