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Open Carry: Oklahoma scores partial victory

Go easy on Arth, you guys.

I have no doubt he's trying to understand the whole gun thing, but he's at a disadvantage. His point of view is a lot like the right wingers in this country who are against socialized medicine. They've been told their whole lives that anything with "socialized" in the name is bad, and they can't see beyond that.

(This is a serious post, by the way, and not a jab at Arth's way of thinking.)
 
Go easy on Arth, you guys.

I have no doubt he's trying to understand the whole gun thing, but he's at a disadvantage. His point of view is a lot like the right wingers in this country who are against socialized medicine. They've been told their whole lives that anything with "socialized" in the name is bad, and they can't see beyond that.

(This is a serious post, by the way, and not a jab at Arth's way of thinking.)
Well, there is a difference between trying to understand as in 'try to put yourself in the other person's position', and 'try to make those 'others' fit into your world view'.
 
Okay, guns do not equal bad. I'm pretty sure I don't disagree with that. What I do disagree with is Guns equals GOOD, which opinion I have seen expressed many times. Also the opinion "I have a right to carry a gun, therefore I should (occasionally must) carry", which I have also seen many times.

I don't own a gun, don't really want to own a gun, but I support gun rights. Certainly people who do own guns have incentive to be more vocal about their opinions. For me personally the issue is entirely academic. For people who incorporate guns into their lives, it's more personal.

Why the Oklahoma result is considered a "victory" is something I have some problems understanding. Why open carry is a good thing. We in Australia would not consider that a "victory". We'd consider it a backward step. It's undoubtedly a cultural thing - one I have some trouble with.

It's a "victory" for people who support gun rights. I don't think I would describe it as a cultural thing, people in the US who don't support gun rights wouldn't see it as a victory.

It's been a minor goal of mine to try and understand why Americans take their guns so damn seriously.

For me personally, as a non-gun owner, it goes to the heart of what people think the role of government should be in our lives. My personal opinion is that efforts to limit gun rights are aimed at problems people imagine could happen and not real problems that exist.
 
Why the Oklahoma result is considered a "victory" is something I have some problems understanding. Why open carry is a good thing.

It's a partial victory because it (partially) forces the state of Oklahoma to follow the rules (the US constitution) from which it draws its power. Anything that returns government to actually govern by the rules (presumably drew up with consent of the governed) is a good thing.

Why don't the more enthusiastic gun control advocates be honest, drop the post hoc rationalizations and try to amend the constitution. I'd consider that a victory as well.
 
Why don't the more enthusiastic gun control advocates be honest, drop the post hoc rationalizations and try to amend the constitution. I'd consider that a victory as well.
Can you unpack this for me?
 
Can you unpack this for me?

Err...the more enthusiastic gun control advocates want to remove the right to keep and bear. Instead of pretending the constitution says something that it doesn't (e.g. right is collective and belongs to the states), they should be honest and try to remove the right in a lawful manner (i.e. amend the constitution) and leave it to the people to ratify this change. Even putting aside the concept that the Bill of Rights exend from English common law and therefore exist without (or even in defiance of) the constitution, I would live with that decision.
 
Err...the more enthusiastic gun control advocates want to remove the right to keep and bear. Instead of pretending the constitution says something that it doesn't (e.g. right is collective and belongs to the states), they should be honest and try to remove the right in a lawful manner (i.e. amend the constitution) and leave it to the people to ratify this change. Even putting aside the concept that the Bill of Rights exend from English common law and therefore exist without (or even in defiance of) the constitution, I would live with that decision.

Ahh, I dont know why/how I misunderstood you now!

Thanks for the clarification.
 
These poor, emotive, brainwashed foreigners straining in vain to comprehend rational, American freedom... I pity them so.
 
These poor, emotive, brainwashed foreigners straining in vain to comprehend rational, American freedom... I pity them so.

If there is no good evidence that restricting gun rights will reduce violent crime, then why not allow people the freedom to make their own decisions?

No cost to society and more freedom for individuals = no good reason for society to ban it.

(FWIW, I make the same argument for gay marriage)
 
It doesn't really concern me how foreigners view American gun culture. So what if they think that people carrying around loaded weapons legally is crazy? Has no effect on me.
 
Maybe if you did not come off as morally superior for having a government which does not see fit to trust you with a defensive tool.
I apologise for coming across as condescending. It isn't my intention. And it isn't that the government isn't trusting me, it's that the government isn't trusting crazies. If I could provide a good justification for owning a gun (not including self-defence which isn't considered a good justification), then I could get one, so long as I provided adequate protections against accidental discharge and theft by the aforementioned crazies. I don't need one and I don't want one, and I don't see the fact that I can get one to be a good enough reason to have one.

For me personally, as a non-gun owner, it goes to the heart of what people think the role of government should be in our lives.
Fair enough, but why do guns have to be a part of that equation? I could be a small-government advocate and still not require a gun to be a part of that. The American Second Amendment has always seemed to me to be supporting the right of citizens to form armed militias, which was quite relevant in the revolutionary period and not so much now. I wonder how many gun-rights advocates now are members of militias?

It's a partial victory because it (partially) forces the state of Oklahoma to follow the rules (the US constitution) from which it draws its power. Anything that returns government to actually govern by the rules (presumably drew up with consent of the governed) is a good thing.

Why don't the more enthusiastic gun control advocates be honest, drop the post hoc rationalizations and try to amend the constitution. I'd consider that a victory as well.
This is a good point. But personally I think there's very little possibility of repealing the Second Amendment in the forseeable future. It's a non-starter.

No cost to society and more freedom for individuals = no good reason for society to ban it.
You seem to think that any gun control is equivalent to banning. It isn't. As I said, it's perfectly legal for me to apply for and obtain a gun license just like it is for you. As far as I can tell there are two main differences - the types of weapon that are available legally, and the fact that "self-defence" is not considered a valid reason to own a gun here. Hunting, vermin control, sport - all are valid reasons, and there are plenty of responsible, legal gun owners in Australia. Heck, we have some regular shooters on our own property to shoot feral goats and foxes, and I have no problem with them (unlike my crazy hippie vegan neighbours...).
 
No, they are not apples to oranges. Both are emergency tools which serve purposes, which you must keep with you at all times for them to be effective becuase you cannot know when you will need it. Unless you are psychic . . .

I don't own a gun, but I do own a fire extinguisher. I don't carry it with me at all times, I keep it under the sink in the kitchen because statistically the kitchen is where I will most likely need it, if I ever need it.
 
I apologise for coming across as condescending. It isn't my intention. And it isn't that the government isn't trusting me, it's that the government isn't trusting crazies. If I could provide a good justification for owning a gun (not including self-defence which isn't considered a good justification), then I could get one, so long as I provided adequate protections against accidental discharge and theft by the aforementioned crazies. I don't need one and I don't want one, and I don't see the fact that I can get one to be a good enough reason to have one.

So despite there not being a cost to society (as violent crime seems either to fall slightly or remain the same) you feel it should be banned anyway? Not very sceptical and very similar thinking to the religious types who would like to ban xyz based on emotion rather than empiricism...

You seem to think that any gun control is equivalent to banning. It isn't. As I said, it's perfectly legal for me to apply for and obtain a gun license just like it is for you. As far as I can tell there are two main differences - the types of weapon that are available legally, and the fact that "self-defence" is not considered a valid reason to own a gun here. Hunting, vermin control, sport - all are valid reasons, and there are plenty of responsible, legal gun owners in Australia. Heck, we have some regular shooters on our own property to shoot feral goats and foxes, and I have no problem with them (unlike my crazy hippie vegan neighbours...).

Where did I say "banning". I just put forward the idea that, if one desires to restrict individual freedoms, you should be able to point to some harm of greater magnitude that would befall society if the freedoms were not taken away.
 
So despite there not being a cost to society (as violent crime seems either to fall slightly or remain the same) you feel it should be banned anyway?
(irrelevant insults skipped)

I'm not at all certain there is no cost to society having firearms more freely available. The statistics, as I mentioned, are ambiguous or contradictory, and I'm not sure the effects on society don't go beyond those limited statistics anyway.

Where did I say "banning".
You said it here:
No cost to society and more freedom for individuals = no good reason for society to ban it.

I just put forward the idea that, if one desires to restrict individual freedoms, you should be able to point to some harm of greater magnitude that would befall society if the freedoms were not taken away.
Okay, here we have a massive disconnect. You see it as "restricting individual freedoms". I don't see it that way at all. For me, owning a gun is not a right. I understand that your Bill of Rights makes it so, fine. I'm not an American and my society doesn't operate under American standards. Why should gun ownership be a "right" anyway? If my country's violent crime statistics are about the same as yours - which you've admitted - what benefit to society does more widespread gun ownership bring?

All of your arguments are based on a presupposed position of gun ownership. Cost to a gun owner society. Restricting freedom to own guns. Reasons to ban guns. Try and imagine, if you will, a hypothetical society where there are no guns. What benefit would there be to that society in introducing them?
 
If the pinnacle of a truly free society is that someone can carry a handgun when walking down to the 7/11, I'm glad I don't have "true" freedom. And all this "free to do what we want if it doesn't hurt people" stuff. Does anyone really believe this? Restrictions on abortion has just been cited. Try to exercise the freedom not to pay tax someday. Just build what you want on your land despite local building regulations. I could go on.

But as long as people can carry guns, we're free. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
 

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