Nope: I have no doubt at all that the C14 DATING IS CORRECT and convincingly marks the shroud as a fraud. In fact-the more you post the more it is clear how little evidence there is in support of your own position.
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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud
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Nope: I have no doubt at all that the C14 DATING IS CORRECT and convincingly marks the shroud as a fraud. In fact-the more you post the more it is clear how little evidence there is in support of your own position.
Jabba
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Help
- You must be younger than I thought -- all my equally elderly friends are having memory problems similar to my own...
- And, I actually did mention it to my Doctor, but she immediately dismissed it.
- As to my "friends" ... I didn't mean to say or imply that I had "many," of them. I was able to recruit a small "team" (4, including myself), and mostly figured that they could help me especially with references, as I had done such a poor job of keeping track of my own. But it took a few months (several?) to put the website together, and decide how we wanted to present our case -- and by the time we did, my friends had found more pressing matters to which to attend (I couldn't blame them).
- But then, I also have a "leading" problem. I spent three years in the Army, getting out as a Captain. Luckily, I was also a pilot, and didn't have to do much leading -- I probably wouldn't be here today if I did, as one of my subordinates would have surely "fragged" me. Anyway, I suspect that if I was a better leader, I'd still have a team.
- I do have some well-known "advisers," and they do try to help -- but, they don't have the time, nor the urge, to participate here, or on my website...
- I've tried to get followers of http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/ to come over here, and/or my site, but no one has shown up here, and only a couple have registered on my site. I had expected a lot of interest from my fellow shroudies, but apparently, they aren't all that.
- And finally, I was actually hoping that you would give me a helping hand.
- Were you able to actually see the article I linked (http://uniroma.academia.edu/Emanuel...ng_for_the_radiocarbon_dating_of_the_Shroud)? For some reason, it keeps 'disappearing'...
- You've been encouraging in the past, so I was hoping that you at least would experience some reasonable doubt from that article -- if you didn't already have some...
- Anyway, I appreciate your patience. Hopefully, my appreciation won't put you in bad standing with your compatriots..
--- Rich
Ward,
- You must be younger than I thought -- all my equally elderly friends are having memory problems similar to my own...
- And, I actually did mention it to my Doctor, but she immediately dismissed it.
- As to my "friends" ... I didn't mean to say or imply that I had "many," of them. I was able to recruit a small "team" (4, including myself), and mostly figured that they could help me especially with references, as I had done such a poor job of keeping track of my own. But it took a few months (several?) to put the website together, and decide how we wanted to present our case -- and by the time we did, my friends had found more pressing matters to which to attend (I couldn't blame them).
- But then, I also have a "leading" problem. I spent three years in the Army, getting out as a Captain. Luckily, I was also a pilot, and didn't have to do much leading -- I probably wouldn't be here today if I did, as one of my subordinates would have surely "fragged" me. Anyway, I suspect that if I was a better leader, I'd still have a team.
- I do have some well-known "advisers," and they do try to help -- but, they don't have the time, nor the urge, to participate here, or on my website...
- I've tried to get followers of http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/ to come over here, and/or my site, but no one has shown up here, and only a couple have registered on my site. I had expected a lot of interest from my fellow shroudies, but apparently, they aren't all that.
- And finally, I was actually hoping that you would give me a helping hand.
- Were you able to actually see the article I linked (http://uniroma.academia.edu/Emanuel...ng_for_the_radiocarbon_dating_of_the_Shroud)? For some reason, it keeps 'disappearing'...
- You've been encouraging in the past, so I was hoping that you at least would experience some reasonable doubt from that article -- if you didn't already have some...
- Anyway, I appreciate your patience. Hopefully, my appreciation won't put you in bad standing with your compatriots..
--- Rich
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Jabba
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dafydd
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Even if there are problems with the dating you would still have to prove that the Jesus with super powers actually existed.
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Because doing the same thing over and over and hoping that each new iteration will bring a different result always works so well, doesn't it?
dafydd
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Didn't Einstein say something about doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results?
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
Which Journal is that from?
And who is Emanuela Marinelli?
What is this man’s history of involvement with the Shroud?
dafydd
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Why yes, I believe he did, but he didn't have to worry about the MA.
What a perspicacious Pharaoh you are.
dafydd
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Woman's. Just another deluded shroudie. She accuses scientists of hatching a plot to denigrate the shroud, as if a plot were needed. The Vatican awarded her the title of ''Diploma of Catechist Specialized in Catechesis of the Passion'' in 1987. A Micky Mouse diploma of course.
https://shroudofturin.wordpress.com...marinellis-carbon-dating-paper-from-valencia/
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pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
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Thanks for reposting the link.
It gives a very clear idea of where TS theories are these days.
However, even a superficial reading of it shows no reason to doubt the carbon dating of the cloth itself.
People have read it. It is dishonest for you to continue as if none have. Even after reading it, we find no reason to doubt the C14 dating. Why? Because the article only pretends to legitimately deconstruct the C14 dating.
There are many instances of fallacious reasoning and deceptive wording in your linked document. I spoke specifically about one very relevant section back in post #1231. I ask you, again, to address my comments in that post.
If you cannot or will not, then you will, again, have shown yourself to be one who intentionally engages in dishonest debating.
catsmate
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I'm not signing up just to read that paper. State, clearly, coherently and with evidence, why you consider the radiocarbon dating of the shroud to be unreliable.
catsmate
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And somehow refute the mass of other evidence that the shroud is a medieval fake.
None. It's a non peer-reviewed presentation from a gathering of shroudies.
A geologist, right-wing catholic and conspiracy nut.
Woman. She's been a believer for many years and has presented a number of "papers" at various shroudie gatherings. None peer reviewed or properly published.
Why is a huge chunk of the paper devoted to whether the sampling was "regular" or not? Are there ANY "regular" methods for sampling unique archeological objects (remember, the shroud would still be a unique and fascinating object even if it started off as a fraud)? While there are protocols, they necessarily must be fluid--every artifact, and indeed every bit of sampleable material, is unique. For example, my latest C14 samples were taken by digging charcoal out of a trench wall with my trowel. Is that "regular" enough for this person, or would they consider it to be too much of a deviation from whatever arbitrary standard (there aren't set-in-stone standards) this author prefers?
Devotion to such trivial matters is typically the hallmark of someone who can't or won't address substantial issues.
You've been felled at the first hurdle, Jabba. Your own side agrees that there's not enough evidence to support the notion that the shroud is old enough for us to even consider the rest of the issue.
The only question is, are you honest enough to accept this? Or will you engage in special pleading or more bovine-biproduct pseudo-courtroom tactics to wiggle out of it?
Devotion to such trivial matters is typically the hallmark of someone who can't or won't address substantial issues.
This quote in the abstract is pretty much all you need to know about this topic, Jabba:YOUR SIDE is OPENLY saying that the shroud can't be dated. That means that even if this were the shroud of Jeshua bin Yoseph, you can't prove it. You can't even prove that the timing is right. And your side said so. So EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT what we're left with is nothing more than an odd relic.
You've been felled at the first hurdle, Jabba. Your own side agrees that there's not enough evidence to support the notion that the shroud is old enough for us to even consider the rest of the issue.
The only question is, are you honest enough to accept this? Or will you engage in special pleading or more bovine-biproduct pseudo-courtroom tactics to wiggle out of it?
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Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
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I know you are facing an overwhelming number of posts, but I want to ask just one quick question. No research required, I just need a quick opinion from you.
If a newcomer came into the thread at this point and said, I am already familiar with every single claim ever made by a pro-shroud person. Rather than read the entire thread to get up to speed, please tell me which items Jabba has admitted are false, are so lacking in support as to be dismissed, OR are so irrelevant that they should no longer be discussed in this thread.
Jabba, is your answer "nothing from the original claims falls into those categories"?
Do you believe that every single item that you have brought up anywhere in this thread is still worth considering when performing an objective and scientific evaluation of the Shroud's origin?
If a newcomer came into the thread at this point and said, I am already familiar with every single claim ever made by a pro-shroud person. Rather than read the entire thread to get up to speed, please tell me which items Jabba has admitted are false, are so lacking in support as to be dismissed, OR are so irrelevant that they should no longer be discussed in this thread.
Jabba, is your answer "nothing from the original claims falls into those categories"?
Do you believe that every single item that you have brought up anywhere in this thread is still worth considering when performing an objective and scientific evaluation of the Shroud's origin?
dafydd
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You are clutching at straws there. Do you really think that we will be impressed by a nutcase?
OK, thanks for that. Here is some more info on Ms Marinelli and her Shroud beliefs (see below in blue) -
- what this "Biography" (below) describes is a woman who is a long time shroud believer and shroud activist at various shroud conferences, who was a school teacher, and who taught on something called " the biennial course of Shroud studies on Christ's Passion ", and further that she held “ adjournment courses for the teachers of religion ..."
And this is what Jabba offers us a “evidence” that the C14 was in error.
Jabba - you really must stop posting worthless and frankly disingenuous links to articles written by religious shroud believers.
If the truth is that in fact you do not have any genuine research papers from any genuine independent scientists ever saying the C14 is any doubt, then please be honest enough to admit that …
… do you have even one genuine research paper from any genuine science Journal where any genuine independent scientist has ever said that the C14 is any doubt whatsoever?
Emanuela Marinelli
Biography:
Emanuela Marinelli has degrees in Natural and Geological Sciences and the qualifications to teach Mathematics, Natural Sciences, Chemistry and Geography. She worked by contract with the Institute of Mineralogy of Rome University of Study in the years 1974 and 1975.
From 1976 to 2009 she was a teacher in state schools. Since 1981 she has been teaching Physical, Political, Economic and Tourist Geography at the Professional Institute for the Commercial and Tourist Services "Giulio Verne" of Rome. She also taught Iconography, Iconology and Christian Symbology at the Assumption University of Orvieto.
She was one of the members of the Centro Romano di Sindonologia from 1977 to 1985. At this center she attended the biennial course of Shroud studies on Christ's Passion, subsequently becoming teacher of the same courses. The Vicariate of Rome gave her, after her attendance of a further biennial course of catechesis by the Vicariate itself, the Diploma of Catechist Specialized in Catechesis of the Passion on 1987. In 1987 she attended as a teacher, the first course of Sindonology held in Rome by the Santuario della Madonna del Divino Amore. In 1988, 1989, 1991, and 1992 she held, by the Vicariate of Rome, adjournment courses for the teachers of religion of the diocese of Rome about the topics relative to the Shroud. She held adjournment courses for the teachers of religion in other dioceses in Italy. Since 1977 she held several lectures in each region of Italy and abroad (for example: Indonesia). She wrote numerous articles in newspapers and magazines and took part in various broadcasts and telecasts.
She attended the Congresses on the Shroud held in: Turin 1978, Bologna 1981, Trani 1984, Siracusa 1987, Bologna 1989, Paris 1989, Cagliari 1990, Rome 1993, Nice 1997, Turin 1998, Richmond 1999, Rio de Janeiro 1999, Orvieto 2000 (she was the coordinator), Dallas 2001, Paris 2002, Rio de Janeiro 2002, Dallas 2005 and Frascati 2010.
She wrote in 1990 for the publishing house Rizzoli in collaboration with Orazio Petrosillo, the book La Sindone - Un enigma alla prova della scienza, translated into English, French, Spanish and Polish; in 1996 for the publishing house S. Paolo the book La Sindone, un'immagine "impossibile", translated in Portuguese and Polish; in 1997 for the publishing house S. Paolo in collaboration with Maurizio Marinelli, the texts for the cd-rom Sindone viva and worked to its realization. She wrote in 1998 for the publishing house Rizzoli, in collaboration with Orazio Petrosillo, the book La Sindone - Storia di un enigma, updated edition of that of 1990 and for the publishing house S. Paolo, in collaboration with Maurizio Marinelli, the book Cosa vuoi sapere sulla Sindone? She wrote in 1999 for the publishing house Messaggero, in collaboration with Giulio Fanti, the book Cento prove sulla Sindone - Un giudizio probabilistico sull'autenticità; she wrote in 2002 for the publishing house Delta 3, in collaboration with Maurizio Marinelli, the book La Sindone - Un incontro con il mistero; she wrote in 2003 for the publishing house Progetto Editoriale, in collaboration with Giulio Fanti, the book La Sindone rinnovata - Misteri e certezze; in 2006 for the publishing house Sigma Libri in collaboration with Michele Miscia the book La Sindone, alle sorgenti del mistero; in 2007 for the publishing house Edizioni Art - Il Timone the book La Sindone, il mistero di un'immagine; in 2008 for the publishing house Delta 3 in collaboration with Michele Loconsole the book La Sindone, sulle tracce del Mistero; in 2009 for the publishing house Sugarco the book La Sindone, analisi di un mistero; in 2010 for the publishing house S. Paolo the book La Sindone, testimone di una presenza, for the publishing house Téqui the book Suaire de Turin, Témoignage d'une presence, for the publishing house Messaggero in collaboration with Maurizio Marinelli the book Alla scoperta della Sindone and for the publishing house Shalom in collaboration with Maurizio Marinelli the book La Sindone, un mistero tra storia, scienza e fede. She was among the promoters of the movement "Collegamento pro Sindone" and of the homonymous bimonthly magazine, on the web since 1997, to which she actively collaborated from its inception.
Scope & Content of Presentation:
In English: General presentation of relevant Shroud research (1 to 1 ½ hrs. with ½ hr. for questions).
In Italian: General presentation of relevant Shroud research (1 to 1 ½ hrs. with ½ hr. for questions); special presentation on different Shroud subjects (1 hr. every talk with ½ hr. for questions).
Equipment Requirements:
Computer with Power Point & Large Screen
Area of Country available for speaking:
Anywhere, given adequate advance notice. Host responsible for airfare, hotel and all meals and expenses.
Honorarium:
No Fee
Contact:
Emanuela Marinelli
Via Diego Simonetti 54
00122 Roma Lido
Italy
Phone and Fax number: +39-06-5681853
Portable Telephone: +39-347-5801663
E-mail: [email protected]
Web: www.shroud.it
Updated January 31, 2011
Jabba
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- Maybe things would work better if I tried to devote this thread to the carbon dating.
- Doing that, I'll try to 1) defend what I've already presented, 2) see if I can find more information that I would consider evidence for invalidity, and 3) respond to your various q/c's regarding the C14.
- At the same time, I will start a new thread focusing on the probability that there is real blood, in the right places, on the Shroud. I perceive this conclusion as being especially important towards supporting the authenticity of the Shroud.
--- Jabba
- Doing that, I'll try to 1) defend what I've already presented, 2) see if I can find more information that I would consider evidence for invalidity, and 3) respond to your various q/c's regarding the C14.
- At the same time, I will start a new thread focusing on the probability that there is real blood, in the right places, on the Shroud. I perceive this conclusion as being especially important towards supporting the authenticity of the Shroud.
--- Jabba
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