Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[ponderingturtle]

How are we indebted to whales? Other than being majestic...what have they done for us? Aside from providing food and fuel for generations of people?

They taught us how to sing.

 

[Macgyver1968]

They taught us how to sing.

No...that was Barry Manilow.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wait, what?

You lost me.

I am just thinking of a good old fashion Boston st Patricks day parade.

See US Representative Peter King

Or this link and link

 

[RandFan]

Where is the evidence whales are sentient?

How do you know they are sentient? How was this determined? Do whales exhibit problem solving skills like great apes?

Please see my post #137.

FWIW: I'm not a Sea Shepherd fan nor do I hold the position that killing whales is per se immoral (I think it is about as defensible/indefensible as killing human babies under the age of 2).

 

[ponderingturtle]

Please see my post #137.

FWIW: I'm not a Sea Shepherd fan nor do I hold the position that killing whales is per se immoral (I think it is about as defensible/indefensible as killing human babies under the age of 2).

How about dogs?

 

[lionking]

Please see my post #137.

Cross posted. Happens in a fast moving thread.

 

[WildCat]

The professional whalers provide no useful service that can be defended by anyone

Sure they do, if you like whale meat and/or blubber.

 

[RandFan]

How about dogs?

Dogs don't pass the mirror test and the complexity and relative brain size are small. However, there is at least one scientist who believes that there is empirical evidence using dog urine (dogs rely on smell more than sight).

 

[Macgyver1968]

How about dogs?

Good question...while dog may not recognize their own image in a mirror...they do express great amounts of emotion and intelligence. Some cultures have no problem eating dog. Are they evil?

ETA: I missed Rand's posting.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Dogs don't pass the mirror test and the complexity and relative brain size are small. However, there is at least one scientist who believes that there is empirical evidence using dog urine (dogs rely on smell more than sight).

And yet if you point at something dogs understands what you mean, if you point at something a chimp does not care what you are doing. Dogs have much more social intelligence than chimps.

 

[WildCat]

Thankfully your opinion doesn't count for much. They are intelligent, they show distress for other species and act altruistically.

Oh BS. A sperm whale has a brain to body mass ratio of ~7,300:1. That's like a 200lb person with a half ounce brain.

 

[WildCat]

Beside the fact that the Sea Shepard is 100% correct in calling bull **** on "research" vessels?

So what? I'm perfectly fine with them hunting whales for food/oil/blubber.

 

[Marduk]

Oh BS. A sperm whale has a brain to body mass ratio of ~7,300:1. That's like a 200lb person with a half ounce brain.

if intelligence were measured by brain size, shrews with 10% of its body mass in its brain would be masters of the planet

thats like a 200lb person with a 320 oz brain

 

[RandFan]

And yet if you point at something dogs understands what you mean, if you point at something a chimp does not care what you are doing. Dogs have much more social intelligence than chimps.

The problem, and this is true for whales also, is that we don't quite know what that means as it relates to self awareness. It's just too easy to generalize from our own experiences. If you have seen the Terry Schivo pictures or videos you know that humans can appear to be aware and express some emotion when the medical and scientific community says that it is just not the case that they are truly aware or feeling complex emotions. The visual cues can be very misleading.

The difference with whales, I would argue, is in that there is greater potential given the relative brain size and perhaps even more important, degree of complexity.

 

[Travis]

Seems a lot of people would argue that there would be a definite reason to ram vehicles if humans were treated in a similar manner to seals, or whales for that matter, would you agree?

Lots of things are different if they involve a fully self aware human as victim.

 

[Damien Evans]

They lost me when they started going after tuna fishermen.

Tuna? Really?

Tuna overfishing is a serious problem. In addition, longline fishing has been known to also get fish eating birds, including the Wandering Albatross. Longline fishing is estimated to kill 100,000 Albatross of all species every year. There's also the small matter of the Southern Bluefin Tuna being critically endangered


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_bluefin_tuna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longline_fishing

 

[Dessi]

Where is the evidence whales are sentient?

Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?

 

[Checkmite]

I don't believe hunting whales is really necessary and I do consider myself averse to the practice in general.

However, I'm also averse to self-righteous blowhards raising money to buy themselves multi-ton ships so they can go out and deliberately play bumper-boats on the high seas in the name of "helping the whales". What if during one of his attacks Captain Dickbeard had knocked a hole in the aft hull of one of those whalers or damaged his own ship in a way that resulted in a couple thousand gallons of diesel being spilled all over the Antarctic Ocean? Our hero, ladies and gents! "Sea Shepherd" indeed.

 

[Damien Evans]

Bethune and the Ady Gil weren't even moving. The Shonan Maru 2 changed course to deliberately attempt murder. That can't even be debated for crying out loud.

 

[Dessi]

Seems a lot of people would argue that there would be a definite reason to ram vehicles if humans were treated in a similar manner to seals, or whales for that matter, would you agree?

Lots of things are different if they involve a fully self aware human as victim.

Suppose that we aren't talking about fully self-aware humans, but humans who are at a similar level of awareness as seals and whales, like infants or children?