Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

BTW:

Tell me, If a girl decides to walk around at night and she gets raped, do you say "if she'd stayed in your car that night then that wouldn't have happened" or do you blame the rapist?

Being armed is very different than simply being a woman. I will say it again, a person with a fire arm must bear responsibility for that fire arm and should avoid unnecessary situations that could lead to harm.

If you drive a car you have responsibility to ensure you minimize risk to others. Don't drink and drive. Likewise, if you have a firearm and see a suspicious person and you are scared of that person, stay in your ******* car.

I'm not sure how that is not getting through.

 

[Dcdrac]

Being armed is very different than simply being a woman. I will say it again, a person with a fire arm must bear responsibility for that fire arm and should avoid unnecessary situations that could lead to harm.

If you drive a car you have responsibility to ensure you minimize risk to others. Don't drink and drive. Likewise, if you have a firearm and see a suspicious person and you are scared of that person, stay in your ******* car.

I'm not sure how that is not getting through.

When working in law enforcement, both uniformed and plain cothes, we were instructed to never tackle a suspect on our own and await back up and carry on surveillance until such time that back up was in place.

 

[johnny karate]

Hmm, that's odd. It doesn't say:

"As a first resort, beat them to the floor and then keep whaling on them. "

I wonder why that was left out?

Where is the part where it tells you to attack and beat the person. Was that point 11 and you just left it out?

TM likely attacked GZ for the heinous crime of following him, which cannot be justified without additional evidence.

The nature of the assumptions being taken as fact on a skeptic's forum of all places is mind-boggling.

 

[Xulld]

The nature of the assumptions being taken as fact on a skeptic's forum of all places is mind-boggling.

Is it your contention that GZ attacked Martin?

So he called the police, knowing they were on their way, just like he had done many times in the past, but this time decided he would attack the suspect, not knowing how far out the police were?

That makes sense to you?

 

[johnny karate]

Being armed is very different than simply being a woman. I will say it again, a person with a fire arm must bear responsibility for that fire arm and should avoid unnecessary situations that could lead to harm.

If you drive a car you have responsibility to ensure you minimize risk to others. Don't drink and drive. Likewise, if you have a firearm and see a suspicious person and you are scared of that person, stay in your ******* car.

I'm not sure how that is not getting through.

I'm afraid that's not correct, Randfan. See, when you make the argument that someone who arms themselves with a loaded gun bears a certain amount of responsibility, what you're basically arguing is that rape is a good thing.

Hooray for rational discourse!

 

[bookworm]

All I know thus far is this,TM should kept ******* walking home. He didn't and a confrontation resulted.

Actually, TM was already RUNNING home and he stopped for some reason. Why? He had time to make it home if that was what he wanted to do.

 

[Sabretooth]

I'm afraid that's not correct, Randfan. See, when you make the argument that someone who arms themselves with a loaded gun bears a certain amount of responsibility, what you're basically arguing is that rape is a good thing.

Hooray for rational discourse!

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[bookworm]

It was a provocation.

If being followed justifies someone attacking someone else then we have a huge problem on our hands.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Not true, we do have evidence, Zimmerman is a witness and so is the "John" witness.

RE: TM initiating the attack.

0) 'john' does not claim to see who initiates the fight
1) GZ claims it was TM
2) SPD agreed on multiple occasions that GZ story fit the evidence they had
3) Gilbreath stated he had no evidence to contradict GZ claim
4) 'deedee' claims trayvon confronted GZ
5) GZ knew the police would be there momentarily - why start an altercation - that makes no sense. TM didn't know the police were coming.

 

[GWCarver]

Rare Earth, the quote does not match the newspaper article. That article first says "circled", then says, "was circling". Now we have the earlier "started circling". Do you see the progression, from "started circling", to "circled", to "was circling"?

DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?

"Started circling"? What does that even mean? My guess is the amount of time Bernie spent on it matches its importance. O'Mara had no way to rebut it because then, like today, he hadn't received discovery.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Actually, TM was already RUNNING home and he stopped for some reason. Why? He had time to make it home if that was what he wanted to do.

Because hiding in the bushed in the dark is apparently preferable to being home safe and having a scary man know your home address.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Facts not in evidence.

I'm not blaming anyone. I tell my daughter to avoid dangerous situations. Is THAT blaming my daughter.

Tell me, if some kid goes to 7-11 to get skittles and he gets shot do you blame the victim?

Not unless he attacks and beats the guy who shoots him in self-defense. Then the kid going to 7-11 for skittles definitely bears major responsibility in what happened.

 

[RandFan]

What the hell are you talking about?

He's talking about Giz equating the act of being raped with the act of shooting someone.

Tell me, If a girl decides to walk around at night and she gets raped, do you say "if she'd stayed in your car that night then that wouldn't have happened" or do you blame the rapist?

 

[johnny karate]

Is it your contention that GZ attacked Martin?

So he called the police, knowing they were on there way, just like he had done many times in the past, but this time decided he would attack the suspect, not knowing how far out the police were?

That makes sense to you?

Interesting that you would only focus on one part of your grand assumption in that question:

TM likely attacked GZ for the heinous crime of following him...

You're also assuming Zimmerman was merely innocuously following Martin prior to the altercation, which of course conveniently overlooks the very real possibility that Zimmerman could have been engaged in what might have been perceived as more threatening behavior.

If you're just going make things up that can't be supported with evidence to exonerate Zimmerman, why not also claim he was carrying a basket of puppies to deliver to an orphanage?

 

[Dancing David]

I actually think we have seen the great bulk of the evidence that matters, but we'll see.

Considering we do not have the majority of forensic evidence, that seems to be an over statement.

 

[johnny karate]

RE: TM initiating the attack.

0) 'john' does not claim to see who intrastate the fight
1) GZ claims it was TM
2) SPD agreed on multiple occasions that GZ story fit the evidence they had
3) Gilbreath stated he had no evidence to contradict GZ claim
4) 'deedee' claims trayvon confronted GZ
5) GZ knew the police would be there momentarily - why start an altercation - that makes no sense. TM didn't know the police were coming.

None of this precludes the notion that Zimmerman provoked Martin with threatening behavior.

 

[Rare Truth]

Rare Earth, the quote does not match the newspaper article. That article first says "circled", then says, "was circling". Now we have the earlier "started circling". Do you see the progression, from "started circling", to "circled", to "was circling"?

DE LA RIONDA: Did he, Mr. Zimmerman, the defendant, at one point claim to the police that he was scared because Mr. Martin started circling his car?

"Started circling"? What does that even mean? My guess is the amount of time Bernie spent on it matches its importance. O'Mara had no way to rebut it because then, like today, he hadn't received discovery.

How much you want to bet the word circled or circling
(if you're going to be so nitpicky )

is going to be in the police report of what Zimmerman gave as his statement that night?

Sig-line for a month work for you?

 

[Rare Truth]

Eight small words spoken by George that could have altered everything:

I'm the Neighborhood Watch Captain. Do you live here?

 

[Xulld]

Tell me, If a girl decides to walk around at night and she gets raped, do you say "if she'd stayed in your car that night then that wouldn't have happened" or do you blame the rapist?

He's talking about Giz equating the act of being raped with the act of shooting someone.

NO, he is equating how the action of getting out of your car is disconnected from any kind of responsibility for being assaulted.

If carrying a gun made you responsible for others attacking you, you might have a point.

If carrying a gun made it so that following someone immediately justified being assaulted, you might have a point.

If however there exists evidence that Zimmermans story is not accurate, then maybe something happened different, but that is not positive evidence that a different narrative is true, only that Zimmermans is suspect.

None of this precludes the notion that Zimmerman provoked Martin with threatening behavior.

Which is not the same as saying we have evidence that Zimmerman provoked Martin.

You're also assuming Zimmerman was merely innocuously following Martin prior to the altercation, which of course conveniently overlooks the very real possibility that Zimmerman could have been engaged in what might have been perceived as more threatening behavior.

No, I am not assuming anything. We have nothing to show that anything other than keeping an eye on Martin provoked the attack.

If you're just going make things up that can't be supported with evidence to exonerate Zimmerman, why not also claim he was carrying a basket of puppies to deliver to an orphanage?

Its interesting you are accusing me of making things up.

 

[johnny karate]

So if your entire point is GZ had been told he shouldn't be following people, that's probably correct. It was not, however, a rule/order/directive that he was required to follow - so I don't understand why you keep bringing it up.
Reality - GZ probably should have stayed in his car, and TM probably should have run home.

And if and buts were candy and nuts, oh what a Christmas there'd be.

How does any of this play into the legality of case ?

This a really good question, and one that warrants a response. And since you're the one who originally brought up the issue in an attempt to smear Martin:

I understand TM history won't be something brought up in court, but as discussed earlier - we know he was suspended from school 3 times this year - let's compare that to someone arrested once prior to this incident ... which of those people has a problem following the rules/laws ?

... maybe you should be the one to respond.