Does Islam belong in Germany?

[Toontown]

Toontown

All your recent posts are mainly gibberish and vituperation.

I 've already pointed out why you would probably think so, given your apparent reading incomprehension. I've even offered simple guidlines as to how to interpret my posts:

1. If I don't say something, it means I'm not saying it.

2. If I say something, it means I'm saying it.

Please try to stop raving about zombies and let us know what you are saying about Muslim German citizens and residents. Until you do that, us lefty zombies won't even know what we're disagreeing with, if indeed we are disagreeing with you, which seems quite possible, I must admit.

I don't recall having said anything specifically about Muslim German citizens and residents. I know that several strawmen have been constructed by others to the effect that I have had various unclean thoughts on the matter.

But if it will ease your fevered brow, I will say essentially what Kauder said: They are German citizens. They have the rights and responsibilities of German citizens.

None of which should be bogusly construed to mean that I'm now saying Kauder was wrong to say Islam is a poor fit for the German character. But I could be wrong. I may be misreading the German character. Maybe they are potential Muslims waiting to be converted to the One True Religion. I don't know if I would shout that out in a German pub though.

 

[Moss]

Do I have to wonder why Toontown ignored my last post and instead vented about thought police not encountered in this thread? Probably not.

 

[Toontown]

You never did explain why you're "authorized" to dictate what religions "belong" in Germany and I'm not.

That's because I didn't say I was authorized to dictate what religions "belong" in Germany. And you still aren't authorized either.

You had an opinion. I pointed out the weightlessness of the unsupported opinion. Get over it.

Frankly, I've supported my opinion far better than you've supported yours.

 

[Craig B]

... They are German citizens. They have the rights and responsibilities of German citizens.

Then there is nothing to discuss. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, belongs in Germany.

 

[Toontown]

Then there is nothing to discuss. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, belongs in Germany.

You assume too much. Muslim citizens belong in Germany. That doesn't equate to any responsibility on Germany's part to assimilate their belief system into the national identity and culture.

I have the same 'problem' with my atheism. Damn Americans bluntly refuse to see things my way and embrace atheism.

 

[Toontown]

Do I have to wonder why Toontown ignored my last post and instead vented about thought police not encountered in this thread? Probably not.

Most of my posts since your last post are related to your assertions in that post. Just think of the entirety of my remarks as a response to your last post.

After all, it's not as if your assertions are any different from those of your doppelgangers to whom I have responded numerous times.

 

[Cleon]

That's because I didn't say I was authorized to dictate what religions "belong" in Germany. And you still aren't authorized either.

Oh, please.

You had an opinion. I pointed out the weightlessness of the unsupported opinion. Get over it.

And your opinion carries more weight than mine because...?


(Hint: Mindless assertions about "superior German culture" just fill me with revulsion, so skip it.)

Frankly, I've supported my opinion far better than you've supported yours.

Yes, I know that you think so.

 

[A'isha]

You assume too much. Muslim citizens belong in Germany. That doesn't equate to any responsibility on Germany's part to assimilate their belief system into the national identity and culture.

A nation's identity and culture is derived from the identity and culture of its citizens. It's not its own separate thing.

If Muslim citizens are a part of Germany, then their culture and identity are a part of Germany, making their culture and identity part of the overall German national culture and identity.

 

[Chaos]

You assume too much. Muslim citizens belong in Germany. That doesn't equate to any responsibility on Germany's part to assimilate their belief system into the national identity and culture.

You admitted that you are not authorized to dictate what religions belong in Germany. It would be nice if you remembered that long enough to NOT dictate what religions belong in Germany.

 

[Toontown]

Bicycle call. If you got em, ride em.

At least that way you'll be getting some good exercise. What you're doing now is a dead bust.

I've just been waiting for the wind to subside. Doesn't look like it's going to, so I'm going into the face of it. That way it can push me back home.

 

[Moss]

Most of my posts since your last post are related to your assertions in that post. Just think of the entirety of my remarks as a response to your last post.

After all, it's not as if your assertions are any different from those of your doppelgangers to whom I have responded numerous times.

I thoroughly enjoy your lack of specificity.
Especially as nothing you wrote thus far concerns the two questions I myself pondered and asked: Should minorities have an influence on national identity or is it dictated by the majority? Does recent arrival play a role or not? If so, how recent? Oh, that were actually three questions.

 

[Toontown]

You admitted that you are not authorized to dictate what religions belong in Germany. It would be nice if you remembered that long enough to NOT dictate what religions belong in Germany.

And the same bogus misunderstanding would apply to yourself, needless to say.

BTW, pointing out the lack of a responsibilty to assimilate a belief system does not equate to dictating what must or must not be done. Unless you can produce a law that requires such assimilation of belief systems - in which case I would only disagree with the law.

Oh, and congratulations. You've succeeded in displaying the apparently contagious lack of distinction between dictating and having an opinion. For whatever you think that's worth.

 

[Dcdrac]

toontown you will find the vast majority of Muslims are not demading Germany takes in Islam as part of its national character any more than the vast majority of christians there demand that Christianity form the backbone of German society, you would know that if you talked with the MAJORITY of German Muslims and Christians.

For the record I am an aethiast but beleive in freedom of religious expression as laid down in the United Nations Charter and the European Convention on Human Rights

 

[Moss]

And the same bogus misunderstanding would apply to yourself, needless to say.

BTW, pointing out the lack of a responsibilty to assimilate a belief system does not equate to dictating what must or must not be done. Unless you can produce a law that requires such assimilation of belief systems - in which case I would only disagree with the law.

Oh, and congratulations. You've succeeded in displaying the apparently contagious lack of distinction between dictating and having an opinion. For whatever you think that's worth.

Well, that was actually Herr Kauder when he axiomatically stated that Islam does not belong to the German identity. You may want to consult him on whether that was "just an opinion" or an attempt at dictating said identity. Given the CDU/CSU's attempt at defining a German Leitkultur in the last years it clearly is the latter.
The issue you apparently fail to understand is that conversion of more Germans to said religion is not a requirement for Islam to be part of Germany's national identity. German muslims already contribute to everyday life and therefore already shape national culture and identity.

 

[Toontown]

A nation's identity and culture is derived from the identity and culture of its citizens. It's not its own separate thing.

If Muslim citizens are a part of Germany, then their culture and identity are a part of Germany, making their culture and identity part of the overall German national culture and identity.

If your pack thinks it works that way, then your pack thinks it works that way. I don't think it works that way. I think countries do accept and reject belief systems. The proportion of citizens who hold a belief is the leading indicator of the general acceptance or rejection of the belief. If a belief is generally rejected, it can play very little if any part in the national discourse, decision-making process, and culture.

How well do you think science would work if every jackleg with some kind of science degree and a half-baked hypothesis were entitled to have his ideas assimilated into the body of science? I don't think that would work very well at all. And that is not the way things are done. The possession of a degree and a hypothesis does not confer the right to have the hypothesis assimilated.

What you are doing is making idealistic assertions about the way you think things should be. But things are not that way, and should not be that way.

 

[Dcdrac]

If your pack thinks it works that way, then your pack thinks it works that way. I don't think it works that way. I think countries do accept and reject belief systems. The proportion of citizens who hold a belief is the leading indicator of the general acceptance or rejection of the belief. If a belief is generally rejected, it can play very little if any part in the national discourse, decision-making process, and culture.

How well do you think science would work if every jackleg with some kind of science degree and a half-baked hypothesis were entitled to have his ideas assimilated into the body of science? I don't think that would work very well at all. And that is not the way things are done. The possession of a degree and a hypothesis does not confer the right to have the hypothesis assimilated.

What you are doing is making idealistic assertions about the way you think things should be. But things are not that way, and should not be that way.

What a load of illogical tosh

 

[A'isha]

If your pack thinks it works that way, then your pack thinks it works that way. I don't think it works that way. I think countries do accept and reject belief systems. The proportion of citizens who hold a belief is the leading indicator of the general acceptance or rejection of the belief. If a belief is generally rejected, it can play very little if any part in the national discourse, decision-making process, and culture.

And if it's generally accepted, no amount of whining from reactionary idiots who think they get to decide what should or shouldn't be part of the national culture will change that.

How well do you think science would work if every jackleg with some kind of science degree and a half-baked hypothesis were entitled to have his ideas assimilated into the body of science? I don't think that would work very well at all. And that is not the way things are done. The possession of a degree and a hypothesis does not confer the right to have the hypothesis assimilated.

Would you like me to explain to you how scientific consensus and the cultural identity of a nation-state aren't, in any way, shape or form, the least bit similar to each other?

What you are doing is making idealistic assertions about the way you think things should be.

Like declaring that "Islam is not part of our tradition and identity in Germany and so does not belong in Germany", perhaps?

 

[Toontown]

toontown you will find the vast majority of Muslims are not demading Germany takes in Islam as part of its national character any more than the vast majority of christians there demand that Christianity form the backbone of German society, you would know that if you talked with the MAJORITY of German Muslims and Christians.

I don't recall having said otherwise.

OTC, I thought I was arguing against any such notions on the part of religious belief adherents - or their politically motivated champions.

Sorry. I must have misunderstood what I was arguing.

For the record I am an aethiast but beleive in freedom of religious expression as laid down in the United Nations Charter and the European Convention on Human Rights

I am an atheist, and I generally find nothing wrong with the following statements from the OP article:

"Religion must not be allowed to be misused for ideological claims to power," said Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich.

"We (the conference) agree that Salafist extremism is not acceptable and does not fit in a free society as we have in Germany," he said, adding that Salafists did not enjoy the support of the majority of Muslims in Germany.

And that's what all the big bruhaha and thought crime investigation is about. They don't like it that I don't disagree with the accursed conservatoids, who have no right to have their hated beliefs be any part of the national identity, culture, or discourse.

 

[Moss]

If your pack thinks it works that way, then your pack thinks it works that way. I don't think it works that way. I think countries do accept and reject belief systems. The proportion of citizens who hold a belief is the leading indicator of the general acceptance or rejection of the belief. If a belief is generally rejected, it can play very little if any part in the national discourse, decision-making process, and culture.

That's not how national discourse works in Germany. For good reasons minorities have a say in politics and culture. You seem to disagree with that for some reason.

How well do you think science would work if every jackleg with some kind of science degree and a half-baked hypothesis were entitled to have his ideas assimilated into the body of science? I don't think that would work very well at all. And that is not the way things are done. The possession of a degree and a hypothesis does not confer the right to have the hypothesis assimilated.

And this has what to do with how national and cultural identity is formed? You wouldn't be comparing apples and oranges, would you?

What you are doing is making idealistic assertions about the way you think things should be. But things are not that way, and should not be that way.

Your assertions are based on nothing but your sayso. You failed to demonstrate why your perspective is the correct one.

 

[Mycroft]

Oh, you noticed. It so happens that Christianity is a part of the US "national culture and identity", for better or worse, more or less by default.

Agreed.

But that doesn't mean that Islam must also become a part of the national culture and identity. The country is in no way so obligated.

Uhm, I kinda disagree here.

The "national culture and identity" of the US is one that embraces people of all religious preferences as well as people of no religious preference at all. It's even encoded in our constitution as well as our laws. Christianity may be predominant, but other religions also make up part of the greater mosaic. The new-ager who thinks there is power in crystals, the Mormons, Hindus, Jews and even Muslims all have their place here and are all part of a greater whole.

Further, the predominance of any one part is going to change over time. Just like parts of our society look radically different today than from 50 years ago, it's also true that our society 50 years from now will look radically different from how it looks today. It's very likely that aspects that have a small influence today, such as Islam, will have a much larger influence in years to come. How much larger is anyone's guess.