Feminism and Gender

[GreyArea]

The traditional gender roles thing brings up what I think is a very good point--a culturally-enforced norm doesn't necessarily mean a bad norm. Being a mother is an objectively good thing. So is being a nurse, and so on. At least on a superficial level (and most definitely beyond that). The implicit control of the man isn't seen as a negative in that case, or even considered. But it's still there, no?

I think you chose a couple of extra-interesting examples there. (Perhaps on purpose?) We can have mothers, and fathers, but we can also have parents. I think it causes people to think differently about someone if we say she is a mother versus if we say she is a parent. The word "mother" contains a host of connotations and imagery, as does the word "father". Words such as "parent" are more amenable to individualization, and to the perception that that individual parents in their own way.

Furthermore, we can have nurses and doctors, but we still (I think) feel compelled to point out "women doctors" and "male nurses". Like you (I think it was you) said about executives who are women, these "strange" combinations mess with our assumptions about who should have more power and respect.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Wow, crap! I scrolled up after posting the above (which came from a post on the first page) and this thread is already having fights on page three? I'm not sure I want to go back and read what I missed...

If you ignore the fight between mijo and avalon (nothing against them), the thread has been pretty good, but I'm biased

I think you chose a couple of extra-interesting examples there. (Perhaps on purpose?) We can have mothers, and fathers, but we can also have parents. I think it causes people to think differently about someone if we say she is a mother versus if we say she is a parent. The word "mother" contains a host of connotations and imagery, as does the word "father". Words such as "parent" are more amenable to individualization, and to the perception that that individual parents in their own way.

Furthermore, we can have nurses and doctors, but we still (I think) feel compelled to point out "women doctors" and "male nurses". Like you (I think it was you) said about executives who are women, these "strange" combinations mess with our assumptions about who should have more power and respect.

They were on purpose! Think of that old lateral thinking puzzle where the boy and his father are driving and hit by a train, instantly killing the father. When the boy is brought into the hospital, the doctor says "I can't operate on this boy. He's my son!" Many people (including me, when I first heard it) take a nontrivial amount of time to make the realization that the doctor is the boy's mother. The fact that one can succeed inside a system doesn't mean that the dominating system doesn't exist. This same argument is often had regarding exploitative capitalism (note: not capitalism as a whole, but simply exploitative capitalism), but that's another argument for another thread!

 

[Tatyana]

Lots of comments on feminism, not much on gender. As a transgendered person, this is something that I have to deal with constantly. And I have to say, that I have rarely gotten as much hate from any mainstream group as I have from hardcore feminists. Not even necessarily the radical fringes, but from some of the most mainstream-leaning but somewhat puritanical types. MtF TGs are often treated as agent provocateurs, and I've listened to some of the more radical types come right out an say that TGs don't really exist, but are a patriarchal plot to discredit feminism. Including one on this board, many years ago. And it's not just MtF, but FtM are also not well-liked, although they're typically treated as simply delusional or fa "symptom of the true problem".

Are you serious?

I mean I am sure you are but I find this shocking and anger inducing.

I am really sorry you had to experience such retardedness.

I find the concept of gender really interesting.

I don't think it is entirely a social construct, and it does appear that even in cis-individuals, they may have more of a 'male' brain in a female body and vice versa.

Take the quiz:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

Some researchers say that men can have 'women's brains' and that women can think more like men.

Find out more about 'brain sex' differences by taking the Sex ID test, a series of visual challenges and questions used by psychologists in the BBC One television series Secrets of the Sexes:

And some of the results:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/results/

 

[truethat]

I would argue this by saying that I don't necessarily think that enjoying one's own sexuality/beauty/appearance/self and acting in a confident manner is exactly openly inviting sexual advances, per se.

I would argue back that some women are openly inviting sexual advances because they enjoy the attention and don't look at themselves as perpetual victims. So if a guy tells them they are hot they love the attention and want more.

That doesn't mean all women are like this. That's not an excuse for men to treat all women like this. But there are many many many Samantha's out there who are not ashamed of being sexual in any way.

 

[bookitty]

I read once that there isn't feminism, but feminisms. I like thinking this way because different groups have different ideals and goals, and different definitions to make themselves "true feminists". People can still debate if men can be feminists.

The ones who irk me the most are the gender essentialist feminists, the ones who embrace gender prescriptions like "passive" and claim gendered ownership of various domains. The crazy examples from the 70s about how science is male and whatever just make me laugh, though.

And though I wouldn't say I actively dislike it, I find it a bit odd that abortion is often claimed under women's rights. I think there is enough reasonable debate on both legal/moral grounds and on where to exactly draw the lines, especially among women themselves, that saying such a thing is unhelpful. This is also true for the sex work debate.

I dislike the "privilege" talk, but that is in common with most social justice movements now (I started a thread on it a little bit ago).

The most annoying thing from non/antifeminists is when they dramatically state "Men and women are different" as if they are expounding some novel and convincing thought.

For me, feminism is the counteragent to the male dominance our society and culture has had for some time, and the greatest Good is the freedom from social and cultural coercion to any and all gender roles and constraints. If we lived under a different gender system, then I would support the appropriate counter just the same.

Feminisms, oh I like that. It makes more sense than "feminism is X" because, frankly, there's been a lot of weirdass stuff associated with feminism. (My personal loath - The hyper-perceptive, feminine-spirit, earth mother who has some supernatural intuition which is better than logic. Gah! No, a thousand times no!)

 

[mijopaalmc]

If you ignore the fight between mijo and avalon (nothing against them)

Which I can take the bulk of responsibility for.

However, I am still annoyed that AvalonXQ quoted a post of mine asking for precision in claims and responded to it with vague claims, but that doesn't justify all my animosity toward him nor my tendency to post without thinking.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I would argue back that some women are openly inviting sexual advances because they enjoy the attention and don't look at themselves as perpetual victims. So if a guy tells them they are hot they love the attention and want more.

That doesn't mean all women are like this. That's not an excuse for men to treat all women like this. But there are many many many Samantha's out there who are not ashamed of being sexual in any way.

Oh, I agree. There are most definitely people of all genders out there actively seeking sexual attention, and in a very open manner. I just meant to say that not all people who act confident are seeking sexual advances.

 

[truethat]

Oh, I agree. There are most definitely people of all genders out there actively seeking sexual attention, and in a very open manner. I just meant to say that not all people who act confident are seeking sexual advances.

I agree with that as well. I just don't like the perpetual need to paint women as victims and men as perpetrators. Also any man that is treated sexually and doesn't lap it up is considered a fool. There are badly behaving people on all sides.


I've been hanging out in pubs quite a bit lately and I can tell you that I definitely see an expectation that men are to buy women (even strangers they just met) drinks, that women often expect to be "taken care of" by the guy, especially if he has more money. Etc etc etc. Women can be just as aggressive as some men are.

 

[elipse]

Lots of comments on feminism, not much on gender. As a transgendered person, this is something that I have to deal with constantly. And I have to say, that I have rarely gotten as much hate from any mainstream group as I have from hardcore feminists. Not even necessarily the radical fringes, but from some of the most mainstream-leaning but somewhat puritanical types. MtF TGs are often treated as agent provocateurs, and I've listened to some of the more radical types come right out an say that TGs don't really exist, but are a patriarchal plot to discredit feminism. Including one on this board, many years ago. And it's not just MtF, but FtM are also not well-liked, although they're typically treated as simply delusional or fa "symptom of the true problem".

I am sorry this happens to you.

My impression, from the sidelines, is that this anti-trans bigotry is not so tolerated any more; that talking this way about transgendered people is starting to be a sign of transphobia, and that it is slowly changing.

For instance, it seems less acceptable now to create "bio women only" spaces or not allow MTF transgendered people into lesbian night at the local bar.

That's from the sidelines, though, and in San Francisco/Bay Area. Do you see the same thing?

 

[jiggeryqua]

Are you serious?

I mean I am sure you are but I find this shocking and anger inducing.

I am really sorry you had to experience such retardedness.

I find the concept of gender really interesting.

I don't think it is entirely a social construct, and it does appear that even in cis-individuals, they may have more of a 'male' brain in a female body and vice versa.

Take the quiz:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

Some researchers say that men can have 'women's brains' and that women can think more like men.

Find out more about 'brain sex' differences by taking the Sex ID test, a series of visual challenges and questions used by psychologists in the BBC One television series Secrets of the Sexes:

And some of the results:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/results/

If some women have male brains, and some men have female brains, why in the name of pasta are we assigning the brain types by gender? Type A, type B. Warthog brains and wallpaper brains, whatever...the only pairing that, apparantly, is wholly inappropriate is 'male brains' and 'female brains'.

 

[bookitty]

Are you serious?

I mean I am sure you are but I find this shocking and anger inducing.

I am really sorry you had to experience such retardedness.

I find the concept of gender really interesting.

I don't think it is entirely a social construct, and it does appear that even in cis-individuals, they may have more of a 'male' brain in a female body and vice versa.

Take the quiz:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

Some researchers say that men can have 'women's brains' and that women can think more like men.

Find out more about 'brain sex' differences by taking the Sex ID test, a series of visual challenges and questions used by psychologists in the BBC One television series Secrets of the Sexes:

And some of the results:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/results/

I have, unfortunately, encountered this in real life. It's just as anger-inducing in person because it's all based on philosophy instead of people and relies on erroneous preconceptions.

I haven't come across it as often lately but I don't think you would have to search far to find it.

 

[GreyArea]

They were on purpose! Think of that old lateral thinking puzzle ... Many people (including me, when I first heard it) take a nontrivial amount of time to make the realization that the doctor is the boy's mother.

And it still took me a second to figure it out. I'm not there yet myself.

The fact that one can succeed inside a system doesn't mean that the dominating system doesn't exist. This same argument is often had regarding exploitative capitalism (note: not capitalism as a whole, but simply exploitative capitalism), but that's another argument for another thread!

But it's a relevant point. We are all to some degree products of the old thinking. It may be a while before these issues are settled, and we should recognize that there is still learning to do.

I often wonder what ideas I have that will be seen as hopeless throwbacks by future generations. (Hi, future generations!)

 

[GreyArea]

My personal loath - The hyper-perceptive, feminine-spirit, earth mother who has some supernatural intuition which is better than logic. Gah! No, a thousand times no!

Hear, hear. That kind of Earth Mother thinking just sounds like Victorianism warmed over. As far as I'm concerned, it's that kind of essentialism we're trying to get away from.

 

[TragicMonkey]

If some women have male brains, and some men have female brains, why in the name of pasta are we assigning the brain types by gender? Type A, type B. Warthog brains and wallpaper brains, whatever...the only pairing that, apparantly, is wholly inappropriate is 'male brains' and 'female brains'.

Indeed, brains is brains, especially when they're all in a dripping messy heap on your nice hardwood floor on Thanksgiving, why didn't someone put down a tarp first, I want to know.

 

[slingblade]

Can I call you a feminist, then? You're a feminist.

No disrespect intended to you, my friend, but after reading a few more pages of posts...nah, I don't want to own the crapton of baggage that comes with that label.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If some women have male brains, and some men have female brains, why in the name of pasta are we assigning the brain types by gender? Type A, type B. Warthog brains and wallpaper brains, whatever...the only pairing that, apparantly, is wholly inappropriate is 'male brains' and 'female brains'.

Personally I prefer "male branes" and "female branes". They lead to alternative universes that are more masculine or feminine, respectively.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

No disrespect intended to you, my friend, but after reading a few more pages of posts...nah, I don't want to own the crapton of baggage that comes with that label.

The baggage that comes with the label is one of my biggest issues with this topic. It excludes valuable, intelligent people from a community they largely agree with simply because they want to avoid all this (for obvious and good reasons). Can't say I blame you, sling.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Personally I prefer "male branes" and "female branes". They lead to alternative universes that are more masculine or feminine, respectively.

Hey, I learned something! And we're only on page 4. 'Brane', eh? Shame it won't score more in scrabble.

 

[rustypouch]

However, "what about the men?!" certainly exists. Most domestic violence victims are women, that isn't in dispute. Yet when newspapers publish articles about the closure of women's refuges and the like in the comments you always get men bringing up the fact that men can be victims of domestic violence as well. The same happens in discussion of rape. For me when that happens, it often seems to be an attempt to minimise what are fairly large injustices perpetrated on females because a minority of victims are male. That doesn't mean that male domestic violence and rape are not serious issues, they most certainly are, but because of gender they are different. It would be inappropriate to have men in a women's refuge, but that doesn't mean that men don't need their own refuges, but there are going to be vastly fewer of them than women's refuges because of the disparity in victim numbers.

"What about the men" does exist. I feel it comes from looking at all the support that's available to women facing unpleasantness, when there is little, if any support for men in similar situations. I don't think it's questioning the need to help these women, it's asking why can't men get help too.

But I was thinking of other issues men face. The fact that suicide, homelessness, workplace injuries and accidents, etc. all affect men at a much greater rate than women doesn't seem to be a concern.

As for ignoring men's concerns...

When there are complaints about a clothing line that promotes violence towards boys, some consider it to reach "new depths of inanity."

Now that there are significantly more women attending college to men, it's bad for women. Why? It's harder for them to find suitable dates.

I sometimes get the feeling that I'm considered unimportant and disposable because of my gender.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Hey, I learned something! And we're only on page 4. 'Brane', eh? Shame it won't score more in scrabble.

How about chiaroscuro?