Bus stop lady

[Roadtoad]

I was trying to find out what LL thought should be done, and I started off with the outer extreme in an attempt to narrow her down.

Because one of my pet peeves is someone decrying a situation with "how can this happen in our country" without offering any alternatives at all.

Perhaps because there are so few alternatives. Someone has to be so incapacitated their lives are at risk before anyone can step in and help. In other instances, it almost seems as though you're wrong to step in even though someone will likely die if you don't.

There's not a lot of middle ground, here. And that's sad.

 

[WildCat]

Perhaps because there are so few alternatives. Someone has to be so incapacitated their lives are at risk before anyone can step in and help. In other instances, it almost seems as though you're wrong to step in even though someone will likely die if you don't.

There's not a lot of middle ground, here. And that's sad.

Yeah, it's frustrating.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

To clarify, I do not think we should round up mentally ill people and institutionalize them.

So, you're saying we should shoot them one by one as we encounter them?



Sorry, I thought it was a strawman convention.

 

[slingblade]

I was trying to find out what LL thought should be done, and I started off with the outer extreme in an attempt to narrow her down.

Because one of my pet peeves is someone decrying a situation with "how can this happen in our country" without offering any alternatives at all.

What if we don't know any alternatives?


If my car breaks down, I may know exactly what's wrong, but I may not know at all how to fix it. (Yeah, okay, I can take it to someone who knows, but that is not the point!)

The point is that it's perfectly possible to SEE a problem but have no CLUE what the solution is.

WHY do people not understand this? It's always baffled me.

 

[fuelair]

Because it is more comfortable to think there is a solution and someone else will have it - would be my suspicion. And to refer to something from a few years back: Occasionally, someone will make an assumption that solutions they have in their location are options everywhere else. Frequently they are wrong - the state arrangement in the US makes this easily possible as there is wide variety in local response/capability to respond to many types of problem.....

 

[sgtbaker]

So, you're saying we should shoot them one by one as we encounter them?



Sorry, I thought it was a strawman convention.

I really wish you guys would stop putting words in LibraryLady's mouth. It's clear she meant to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

In all seriousness, that is sad. It's not like there is an automatic right thing to do but it still feels wrong that we live in a society with such wealth but we have people living at bus stops.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

I really wish you guys would stop putting words in LibraryLady's mouth. It's clear she meant to nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

In all seriousness, that is sad. It's not like there is an automatic right thing to do but it still feels wrong that we live in a society with such wealth but we have people living at bus stops.

Yeah, but like the supermarket guy that I knew, some of these people just groove on living like this.

Maybe LL's bus stop lady was one of those people.

 

[Jeff Corey]

"Mentally ill people don't take their medication because they are mentally ill"?
In my limited experience, some don't because they don't like the "side effects".
"It makes my head buzz all the time." was common with Haldol.
More existentially. "It makes me not me anymore."

 

[sgtbaker]

Yeah, but like the supermarket guy that I knew, some of these people just groove on living like this.

Maybe LL's bus stop lady was one of those people.

I agree, though, I've never had the chance to sit and speak with homeless people. I am sure there are some perfectly sane people who wouldn't have it any other way. She could have been one of them. Because it's not my choice lifestyle, I am more inclined to see it as an absolute negative.

 

[mijopaalmc]

"Mentally ill people don't take their medication because they are mentally ill"?

Because that's exactly what I said.

I said that having mental illness can often make it difficult to be medication compliant. What I was addressing was the assertion that society completely abandons the mentally ill, which I thought was a vast oversimplification. I mainly trying to focus on the more objective aspect of how have a mental illness can affect one's ability to care for oneself and negotiate one's way in society.

In my limited experience, some don't because they don't like the "side effects".

I understand. Anti-psychotics often some of the nastiest side effects (why did you put it in quotes?) of the psychotropics, including irreversible conditions such as tardive dyskinesia.

"It makes my head buzz all the time." was common with Haldol.

I don't discount that side effects can be, and often are, the reason for discontinuation of a medication regime, but, as I mentioned before, I was emphasizing how mental illness itself affects one's ability to manage mental illness.

More existentially. "It makes me not me anymore."

I am particularly aware of this myself, having moderate major depressive disorder and ADHD-PI and being on a cocktail of medications to manage both. The "I" I was before I started treatment was drastically different in many ways than the "I" I am now, which as you noted leads to uncomfortable questions about, which "I" is the was the real "I" and how I could have been so presumably mistaken as to who I was and who I am.

 

[Dymanic]

Are you saying we should round up mentally ill people and institutionalize them?

It certainly would have streamlined the process of selecting a GOP candidate for the upcoming presidential election.

 

[LTC8K6]

It certainly would have streamlined the process of selecting a GOP candidate for the upcoming presidential election.

But it might also have made the Dem nominee ineligible...

It's hard to run a successful campaign from the nut house.

 

[angrysoba]

I agree, though, I've never had the chance to sit and speak with homeless people.

Really? Where do you live? Here in Osaka, it is never difficult to find homeless people. When I lived in Leeds, West Yorskshire, it wasn't difficult either. Or in the south of England or in London.

 

[LibraryLady]

I was trying to find out what LL thought should be done, and I started off with the outer extreme in an attempt to narrow her down.

Because one of my pet peeves is someone decrying a situation with "how can this happen in our country" without offering any alternatives at all.

So you went straight to reductio ad absurdum? You might have just asked the question. It might have saved some time.

It's very true that some of the street people I see are happy in their chosen life, but I don't feel that is the majority. And with the variety of problems I see with many of the people I deal with daily, I don't think there is a single solution, except, of course, relocating them on Titan.

With the city and state I live in so broke, there are not enough services to even evaluate all of the homeless and mentally ill in the center of the city, which is where I work. There are a number of faith-based organizations, most notably the Catholic Church which owns a lot of property in that area. They run Our Daily Bread, My Sister's Place, and Christopher's House, all of which have services. However, these services come with strings attached.

Strengthening the government-run social services which evaluate people on an individual basis and assess what services are most needed might be a good start. Before the recession, the city did indeed have social workers who would come to the library to meet with people and see if help was needed and wanted. However, that is no longer economically feasible.

Do I have a solution? I don't think there is a single solution, and the problems are way beyond my area of expertise.

Should I then not mention the problem? Ehhhhhhhh......I think maybe I should. If we were only allowed to mention problems we have practical solutions for, people who might come up with solutions might not know the depth of the problems.

Did I intend this to become a debate about the rights of the mentally ill? Not really. I just wanted to salute a lady who I felt had achieved a spot of dignity in a hostile world.

 

[WildCat]

Strengthening the government-run social services which evaluate people on an individual basis and assess what services are most needed might be a good start. Before the recession, the city did indeed have social workers who would come to the library to meet with people and see if help was needed and wanted. However, that is no longer economically feasible.

Do I have a solution? I don't think there is a single solution, and the problems are way beyond my area of expertise.

Should I then not mention the problem? Ehhhhhhhh......I think maybe I should. If we were only allowed to mention problems we have practical solutions for, people who might come up with solutions might not know the depth of the problems.

Did I intend this to become a debate about the rights of the mentally ill? Not really. I just wanted to salute a lady who I felt had achieved a spot of dignity in a hostile world.

How is this not about the rights of the mentally ill? You're advocating helping people who likely don't want help. That severely limits the options available. That woman's family and friends couldn't help her, what makes you think the government could?

I'm reminded of a story from Lake County, IL where a mentally ill woman was arrested on a warrant for missing jury duty. While in the county jail she went on a hunger strike and died 15 days later. The kicker? She was an immigrant from India, and not a US citizen so she wasn't even eligible for jury duty! Sometimes getting the government involved just makes things much worse.

 

[sgtbaker]

Really? Where do you live? Here in Osaka, it is never difficult to find homeless people. When I lived in Leeds, West Yorskshire, it wasn't difficult either. Or in the south of England or in London.

There are plenty of people I could have spoken to, but I am not going to lie (judge me if you must), the stereotype frightens me, a bit. I've spoken to drifters who throw caution to the wind and hitch hike from destination to destination. In those cases, it's usually temporary homelessness with a place to go if they wanted. If that counts, I have, but for the most part, I will give a few bucks if I am approached but act real busy and distracted to avoid conversation. Partly because it's hard to think about and partly because I don't know them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How is this not about the rights of the mentally ill? You're advocating helping people who likely don't want help. That severely limits the options available. That woman's family and friends couldn't help her, what makes you think the government could?-...

So your assumption is the homeless mentally ill are homogenous when it comes to refusing help? They all refuse meds? And they all have family that refuse to help them?

That's a convenient way to stereotype the homeless so you don't have to think any more about them.

 

[fuelair]

So you went straight to reductio ad absurdum? You might have just asked the question. It might have saved some time.

It's very true that some of the street people I see are happy in their chosen life, but I don't feel that is the majority. And with the variety of problems I see with many of the people I deal with daily, I don't think there is a single solution, except, of course, relocating them on Titan.

With the city and state I live in so broke, there are not enough services to even evaluate all of the homeless and mentally ill in the center of the city, which is where I work. There are a number of faith-based organizations, most notably the Catholic Church which owns a lot of property in that area. They run Our Daily Bread, My Sister's Place, and Christopher's House, all of which have services. However, these services come with strings attached.

Strengthening the government-run social services which evaluate people on an individual basis and assess what services are most needed might be a good start. Before the recession, the city did indeed have social workers who would come to the library to meet with people and see if help was needed and wanted. However, that is no longer economically feasible.

Do I have a solution? I don't think there is a single solution, and the problems are way beyond my area of expertise.

Should I then not mention the problem? Ehhhhhhhh......I think maybe I should. If we were only allowed to mention problems we have practical solutions for, people who might come up with solutions might not know the depth of the problems.

Did I intend this to become a debate about the rights of the mentally ill? Not really. I just wanted to salute a lady who I felt had achieved a spot of dignity in a hostile world.

And, that you did quite well!!

 

[marplots]

The sadness comes from my expectation that being removed from society is miserable and tragic. But I've felt very disconnected at times, almost to the extent that having interactions with another human was painful. Was I mentally ill?

What are we to make of those who just don't want to participate in our game?

I wonder about it. The first idea, that they have failed and that's why they aren't part of society -- and if they could just be trained or medicated, they would play the game better -- that's the default, but I have no idea how true that is. I suspect it, only because I'm someone who is able to play by the rules so my bias is set with what I'm competent at.

I also wonder if the bus stop lady enjoyed her conversations with her invisible friend. Imagine that. Someone who is always ready to listen. Someone worth talking to. Someone who will never borrow money from you nor steal your cigarettes when you aren't looking. That's a good friend there.

 

[slingblade]

If you were to observe me in public, there are many occasions when you could see me talking away to no one at all. For some reason, when I am agitated I tend to talk about it out loud, to both myself and "to" the person I am upset with. They aren't listening to me, and it frustrates me, so often I say aloud the things I wish I could say to them, as if they were listening.

But to an observer, it must surely look as if I'm some nutter talking to an imaginary friend.


This does not dispel the idea that I may be an actual nutter, however.