General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dogzilla]

Because it is a curable disease. The fact that they didn't demonstrates the abhorrence of the nazi outlook. The nazis gave him no medical aid because they regarded him as a sub-human, simply because he was a Jew.

The fact that he survived once liberated by the Soviets, demonstrates that he was treatable, and further reinforces how barbaric the nazis were.

Finally, the fact that you even ask this question, well, we all know what that demonstrates.

The Nazis regarded him as a subhuman simply because he was a Jew so when he came down with typhus they sent him to the hospital where he received no medical treatment?? Why did they send him to a hospital instead of a gas chamber or at least the Wall of Death? The Nazis planned to exterminate all the Jews unless they could work. Right? He was Jewish. Right? He couldn't work. Right? What gives?

By your logic, all the prisoners with typhus who died after the British liberated Belsen reinforces how barbaric the British were. Right?

 

[Dogzilla]

Gutman, et al, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, pp 380-391, surveys this topic. For another angle, Hermann Langbein's People in Auschwitz is interesting; the author, an Austrian whose father was Jewish and who was in the camp system as a "privileged" German political (veteran of the International Brigades), served as clerk to Dr Eduard Wirths, among others in the Stammlager medical system. Langbein had waffled, IIRC, on entry into the camp system about his father, describing him as a Mischlinge to some minor degree, and the bureaucracy failed to pursue the point, classifying Langbein as German and political.

I am pretty sure that the reason Dogzilla wants you to explain, and why Clayton is mum, is that the issue, hospitals in camps, for them is not a serious matter but a way to try scoring cheap rhetorical points against Jews.

As Nick would say: these sentences might be vaguely meaningful if they were the only place one could find such discussion. That is quite clearly not the case.

 

[A'isha]

The Nazis regarded him as a subhuman simply because he was a Jew so when he came down with typhus they sent him to the hospital where he received no medical treatment?? Why did they send him to a hospital instead of a gas chamber or at least the Wall of Death? The Nazis planned to exterminate all the Jews unless they could work. Right? He was Jewish. Right? He couldn't work. Right? What gives?

Setting aside your strawman for a moment (seriously, read anything about the development and implementation of the Final Solution...the internal tensions between those who wanted to just wipe out all the Jews right away, and those that wanted to extract as much useful work as possible out of them before wiping them out, is well known and well documented).

If he died from the disease, it saved them the trouble of killing him. If he recovered from the disease, he could be put back to work.

It's a win-win situation for them. Why wouldn't they do what they did?

 

[Nick Terry]

As Nick would say: these sentences might be vaguely meaningful if they were the only place one could find such discussion. That is quite clearly not the case.

On the contrary, the relevant chapter of Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp does what no denier here has the wit to do, namely follow the story through from 1940 to 1945, noting changes over time, which can be quite easily correlated with other changes in Nazi policy, outlining how the situation in the hospitals in the Auschwitz complex affected Jews and non-Jews at various stages in the history of the complex.

Whereas Wiesel's memoir describes a snapshot from late 1944.

 

[Nick Terry]

Anyway, I see Dogzilla has apparently fled the discussion about the Sonderkommandos.

 

[BaaBaa]

As the least well-read member of 'Team Holocaust' or whatever, I find it difficult to believe that the usual gang of deniers don't know (or proclaim to not know) about kapos.

For real? for really really real?

 

[abaddon]

Why would the Germans bother to attempt to save someone who had contracted typhus?


http://www.holohoax101.com/

You have not bothered to address the blatant racism in this quote.

The Nazis regarded him as a subhuman simply because he was a Jew so when he came down with typhus they sent him to the hospital where he received no medical treatment??

He received no treatment from the nazis, even though it was available. Why is that?

Why did they send him to a hospital instead of a gas chamber or at least the Wall of Death? The Nazis planned to exterminate all the Jews unless they could work. Right?

Nope. No hospital for him. It took the Soviet liberation for appropriate treatment to be administered.

He was Jewish. Right? He couldn't work. Right? What gives?

What gives is a policy of providing no care until people die. Genocide on the cheap.

By your logic, all the prisoners with typhus who died after the British liberated Belsen reinforces how barbaric the British were. Right?

Typhus mortality. Check out the mortality rates with and without treatment.

Everything I've read said that Mr. Frank was not hospitalized; he was sent to the Sick Barracks. Which is to say, there was not treatment -- just isolation. The Sick Barracks were no more than a lazar house; if someone got better, it was strictly on their own.

At that, this was better treatment several patients got from Captain Wirth at Hartheim (he shot them rather than risk his own staff getting infected).

There will be no answers to that from the hoax camp.

 

[Dogzilla]

Anyway, I see Dogzilla has apparently fled the discussion about the Sonderkommandos.

What discussion?

 

[Dogzilla]

Setting aside your strawman for a moment (seriously, read anything about the development and implementation of the Final Solution...the internal tensions between those who wanted to just wipe out all the Jews right away, and those that wanted to extract as much useful work as possible out of them before wiping them out, is well known and well documented).

If he died from the disease, it saved them the trouble of killing him. If he recovered from the disease, he could be put back to work.

It's a win-win situation for them. Why wouldn't they do what they did?

Oh, I understand the Final Solution completely. It may have been implemented to a greater or lesser degree at certain times and it wasn't consistent from place to place and everybody charged with implementing the program had extremely wide latitude to do whatever he/she felt was necessary to accomplish the stated unambiguous goals within the constrains of the economic and political realities which were in a state of constant flux depending upon the ebb and flow of the military advances and retreats which, depending upon the psychologically unstable psychopathology of those in charge, changed constantly and randomly but was clearly intended to be a complete physical annihilation of every individual which no branch of Judaism defines as a Jew which can be summed up as everything that happened to the Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945 served no other purpose than the ultimate destruction of the Jewish people and if you're so antisemitic as to question anything I say just wait fifty years and you'll see that every single Jew who was alive in 1945 will be exterminated. And if you think I'm wrong, tell me where they all went if they weren't exterminated and if you're right I'll eat a bug which I won't have to do because only an antisemite would challenge me and contracts with antisemites aren't valid.

 

[Nick Terry]

What discussion?

ah yes, the famous denier goldfish memory. The one which unfolded in posts like

#1053 (Clayton Moore
#1054 (000063 replying to Clayton Moore)
#1055 (me replying to Clayton Moore)
#1061 (you replying to 000063)
#1066 (me replying to you)
#1067 (you replying to me)

and so on, all the way up to #1078, when I replied to you on the Sonderkommandos a day ago, and have received no reply since.

That discussion.

 

[Nick Terry]

Oh, I understand the Final Solution completely. It may have been implemented to a greater or lesser degree at certain times and it wasn't consistent from place to place and everybody charged with implementing the program had extremely wide latitude to do whatever he/she felt was necessary to accomplish the stated unambiguous goals within the constrains of the economic and political realities which were in a state of constant flux depending upon the ebb and flow of the military advances and retreats which, depending upon the psychologically unstable psychopathology of those in charge, changed constantly and randomly but was clearly intended to be a complete physical annihilation of every individual which no branch of Judaism defines as a Jew which can be summed up as everything that happened to the Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945 served no other purpose than the ultimate destruction of the Jewish people and if you're so antisemitic as to question anything I say just wait fifty years and you'll see that every single Jew who was alive in 1945 will be exterminated. And if you think I'm wrong, tell me where they all went if they weren't exterminated and if you're right I'll eat a bug which I won't have to do because only an antisemite would challenge me and contracts with antisemites aren't valid.

Appalling style; run on sentences; should avoid first person; totally lacking in any concrete details, incoherent grasp of chronology, totally unsubstantiated argument, no discussion of historiography worth the name.

F minus

 

[000063]

You can find discussion of the hospital in Elie Wiesel's "Night"

I've already found information, thank you. The so-called "hospital" was entirely undeserving of the name in all but the loosest sense.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

Maybe the Holocaustics could tell us about the Jewish doctors in the camps and how they looked the other way while millions of Jewish children, women, and men were allegedly being murdered in gas chambers. Where are their testimonies?

Their testimonies are referenced in the books you won't read. Dr. Kropveld (Dutch) and Dr. Fischer (Czech) were the doctors whose intervention took Otto Frank from the regular barracks in Auschwitz. What do you know about the medical condition of Otto Frank at the time of this intervention?

Dr. Kropveld is mentioned here for one of his other achievement during nazi occupation of the Netherlands:

- English Abstract:
"The first successful cardiac operation in The Netherlands (ligature of a patent ductus arteriosus) was performed in the Central Jewish Hospital at Amsterdam by the Jewish surgeon dr.S.M. Kropveld in August 1941. Due to the German occupation this milestone in the history of Dutch medicine was not published in the usual manner."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2682294

Are you sure this topic is in your interest?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Maybe the Holocaustics could tell us about the Jewish doctors in the camps and how they looked the other way while millions of Jewish children, women, and men were allegedly being murdered in gas chambers. Where are their testimonies?

About fifty-seven years old, a former captain in the Polish Army, Dr Ilyia Chorazycki was forced into service at Treblinka as physician in the SS clinic, treating SS there. Here is how Dr Chorazycki looked the other way: He led the initial organizing committee for the prisoners' revolt in 1943, the aim being to destroy the camp and end its murder operations, get revenge against the murderers, and free as many inmates from Treblinka as possible. (This is the revolt that deniers chide Jews for not having organized and implemented, of course).

Dr Chorazycki personally handled money for purchase of weapons for the underground, in deals with Ukrainian guards. Discovered by Kurt Franz with a wad of cash, Dr Chorazycki took poison, killing himself before the camp SS could beat information out of him. There are multiple testimonies on Dr Chorazycki's role, including that of Franz Suchomel, who noted, "Stangl told me that this physician had been a famous Warsaw internist" and "Of course, I remember him well; he was a nose and throat specialist. I talked with him many times . . ."

 

[Clayton Moore]

About fifty-seven years old, a former captain in the Polish Army, Dr Ilyia Chorazycki was forced into service at Treblinka as physician in the SS clinic, treating SS there. Here is how Dr Chorazycki looked the other way: He led the initial organizing committee for the prisoners' revolt in 1943, the aim being to destroy the camp and end its murder operations, get revenge against the murderers, and free as many inmates from Treblinka as possible. (This is the revolt that deniers chide Jews for not having organized and implemented, of course).

Dr Chorazycki personally handled money for purchase of weapons for the underground, in deals with Ukrainian guards. Discovered by Kurt Franz with a wad of cash, Dr Chorazycki took poison, killing himself before the camp SS could beat information out of him. There are multiple testimonies on Dr Chorazycki's role, including that of Franz Suchomel, who noted, "Stangl told me that this physician had been a famous Warsaw internist" and "Of course, I remember him well; he was a nose and throat specialist. I talked with him many times . . ."

Hmmm The SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS knew they were killing thousands of Jews. Dr Chorazycki knew the SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS had no problem with a Jewish person, a so called subhuman, Dr Chorazycki, treating them.

I'm sorry, that's a stretch.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Their testimonies are referenced in the books you won't read. Dr. Kropveld (Dutch) and Dr. Fischer (Czech) were the doctors whose intervention took Otto Frank from the regular barracks in Auschwitz. What do you know about the medical condition of Otto Frank at the time of this intervention?

Dr. Kropveld is mentioned here for one of his other achievement during nazi occupation of the Netherlands:

- English Abstract:
"The first successful cardiac operation in The Netherlands (ligature of a patent ductus arteriosus) was performed in the Central Jewish Hospital at Amsterdam by the Jewish surgeon dr.S.M. Kropveld in August 1941. Due to the German occupation this milestone in the history of Dutch medicine was not published in the usual manner."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2682294

Are you sure this topic is in your interest?

LemmyCaution alluded the Jewish doctors tended only to the SS. Now you have two doctors Dr. Kropveld (Dutch) and Dr. Fischer (Czech) interceding for Otto Frank.

 

[LemmyCaution]

LemmyCaution alluded the Jewish doctors tended only to the SS. Now you have two doctors Dr. Kropveld (Dutch) and Dr. Fischer (Czech) interceding for Otto Frank.

No, I didn't, I mentioned one doctor at a different camp.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Hmmm The SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS knew they were killing thousands of Jews. Dr Chorazycki knew the SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS had no problem with a Jewish person, a so called subhuman, Dr Chorazycki, treating them.

I'm sorry, that's a stretch.

So you now concede that some Jewish doctors fought the Germans, an example being Chorazycki who organized armed resistance and even killed himself to protect the resistance and Jewish camp inmates at Treblinka? Right? In contrast to your claims about Jewish doctors watching and doing nothing?

Your only objection is that the Germans wouldn't utilize a Jewish doctor on their own behalf, when it suited them?

 

[000063]

Maybe the Holocaustics could tell us about the Jewish doctors in the camps and how they looked the other way while millions of Jewish children, women, and men were allegedly being murdered in gas chambers. Where are their testimonies?

[provides info]

Hmmm The SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS knew they were killing thousands of Jews. Dr Chorazycki knew the SS were killing thousands of Jews. The SS had no problem with a Jewish person, a so called subhuman, Dr Chorazycki, treating them.

I'm sorry, that's a stretch.

Put those goalposts down and provide something more than incredulity.

...
Your only objection is that the Germans wouldn't utilize a Jewish doctor on their own behalf, when it suited them?

 

[Clayton Moore]

One of the favorite weapons of Team Holocaust is censorship. Others are intimidation and "legal" punishment as in the thought police.

Currently revisionists.com gets a This Account Has Been Suspended

http://web.archive.org/web/20110701113609/http://www.revisionists.com/

The last capture of revisionists.com/ seems to be July, 2011

Welcome

www.revisionists.com

Here are biographical profiles of some noteworthy non-conformist (revisionist) historians and activists.

“Revisionist” history is history writing that challenges official or orthodox portrayals of the past. All productive and worthwhile historical writing is “revisionist” in the sense that it takes into account newly available historical evidence and new insights and perspectives.

The most bold and controversial revisionists are those who challenge official or orthodox claims about the treatment of Europe’s Jews during the Second World War. In some countries, “Holocaust denial” is a crime, and persons who express skepticism of Holocaust claims are punished with imprisonment or fines, or are forced into exile.

Ingrid Weckert

Background:

One of the best-known German historical researchers and writers, Weckert is best known for her book on the events leading up to Kristallnacht - a book called "Feuerzeichen" (Flashpoint). She has been subjected to police raids, during one of which Ernst Zündel was arrested in her apartment in Munich. A former tourist guide for travel agencies, she reads and speaks Hebrew. She knew Menachim Begin and other Jewish leaders personally and frequently visited Israel. In 1998, she was tried, convicted and fined DM 3,500 for writing a Revisionist article. She now lives at the edge of poverty from a small pension.
Repercussions:

Tried, convicted and fined.

I wonder how many revisionist sites have been neutralized by This Account Has Been Suspended or worse.