Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

TM went up to GZ's car to confront him first. TM knocks on GZ's car window.

When do you imagine this might have occurred?

 

[Xulld]

My original post was meant as a rhetorical device, not an actual inquiry into the phenomenon of people arming themselves to go to the store. I explained the point I was making in my previous post. I'm sorry if that point escaped you.

Also, it doesn't really help your case when you accuse someone of being dishonest in the same post in which you blatantly misrepresent their position. I never said I thought having a gun was irrational.

I quoted you, and took you literally. Those are good traits, being rhetorical is not exactly considered honest dialog, it is a manipulative tactic.

Just be straight up Johnny and stop with the circus tricks.


Having a gun is a perfectly reasonable way to defend yourself.
Having a screw driver is a perfectly reasonable tool to fix something. If you have nothing to fix, then it is certainly not in the same realm as a defensive tool, ie has no apparent application while walking around vs the gun does.

A screw driver would make a very poor defensive tool, and without something to fix we are still left wondering what its use was intended for . . . .

If Martin road his bike to school, then Id find no reason to question the need to have a screw driver. If not, I would.

Make sense? Or are you now going to dazzle us with more rhetorical questions that only vaguely apply?

This is kind of stupid and a bit off topic but...
I've notice quite a few Floridians are posting in this thread. I know of at least one other Central Floridian. I live about an hour and a half SE of Sanford so I am not quite at the epicenter. However, I've read multiple blogs and articles, even seen a few news clips making reference to the "constant" chatter in the streets about this case. To be perfectly honest, in my day to day life, since this case went national, I've only had one incident where someone else brought it up to a group of people and it really didn't last that long. Has anyone else seen anything suggesting that the public conversation is/was consumed by this case or is that another hyperbole?

My impression is pretty much the same.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I really hope if a few of you guys want to debate gun rights/gun control you take that to another thread .

 

[crimresearch]

If it helps to clarify things, since my divorce was uncontested, I went before a magistrate. They sit in a court room, wear a robe, at a bench, with a gavel. The difference between a magistrate and a judge is basically that a magistrate works under a judge. A magistrate and hear a case and recommend an outcome but at the end of the day, a judge has to review and sign off on the magistrate's recommendation. It's similar to a PA working beneath a physician.

That's the usual case in many places, but not in Virginia... there it would be like a medical office assistant making diagnoses, and prescribing medicine.

 

[sgtbaker]

When do you imagine this might have occurred?

That was what Tracy Martin told the interviewer that Serino told Tracy that Zimmerman told Serino. That was fun. Anyone else feel dizzy?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

TM went up to GZ's car to confront him first. TM knocks on GZ's car window.

That's the first confrontation. GZ has been driving along, watching TM.

Then TM runs off and GZ gets out to see where he went, but he can't see him/find him.

GZ comes into view of TM and TM again confronts him and then punches him. TM was waiting somewhere to see if GZ follows him.

We have two conversations/confrontations, both of which are initiated by TM.

That's the basic story that will eventually come out, imo.

Or not.

So that means GZ went back to his truck after the call he made.

Then TM came up to the truck. He said are you following me and GZ said no.

Then TM left, and GZ followed him or went in the same general direction.

Then was going back to his truck *again* when TM confronted him from behind .

Something like that ?

 

[LTC8K6]

So that means GZ went back to his truck after the call he made.

Then TM came up to the truck. He said are you following me and GZ said no.

Then TM left, and GZ followed him or went in the same general direction.

Then was going back to his truck *again* when TM confronted him from behind .

Something like that ?

Yes, in general.

GZ had lost TM, but TM did not go home. GZ is going back to the truck to wait for the police. TM has in the meantime seen GZ still looking for him, and decides to confront him again, walking up to him from behind to ask him again about following him.

 

[sgtbaker]

That's the usual case in many places, but not in Virginia... there it would be like a medical office assistant making diagnoses, and prescribing medicine.

I am not understanding the difference. Do you mean a medical office assistant, as in answers phones and sets appointments or a PA or NP? Because here, a PA and an NP can write prescriptions, they just have to be signed off by a Dr.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I thought the 'criminal justice major' claim was also debunked?

http://www.wtkr.com/news/nationworl...ge-zimmerman-college-20120322,0,4913922.story

Zimmerman, 28, first enrolled at the college in 2003 and was working toward a vocational certificate to become an insurance agent. He re-enrolled in 2009 and was working toward an Associate in Arts degree in a general studies program, according to the college.

Is it now . ... rebunked ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

 

[LTC8K6]

When do you imagine this might have occurred?

Well, I said "or not" and added a smiley. Most people wouldn't take the post that seriously.

However, that's what you might do if you are a young tough kid mad about a car following you.

 

[Mumbles]

Yes, in general.

GZ had lost TM, but TM did not go home. GZ is going back to the truck to wait for the police. TM has in the meantime seen GZ still looking for him, and decides to confront him again, walking up to him from behind to ask him again about following him.

So, no, Martin did not ever knock on Zimmerman's window.

Zimmerman's the worst eyewitness of all time. He sees Martin peering into windows, but describes him as "walking around, looking about". He completely fails to mention that Martin had already spoken to him, and has no ides what race the obviously black Martin is, despite being mere inches from him and clearly seeing him. He's unable to remember the names of all three streets that he's been patrolling for who knows how long. And he somehow manages to completely lose someone who he clearly saw run into a narrow pathway with no real place to hide.

 

[curi0us]

So no one can shed any light on Gilbreath saying about "running around the car?"

So we have Mr. Martin and Det. Gilbreath seemingly stating that TM came up to GZ in his car/truck. And GZ might or might not have said that, we don't have his entire statements.

I thought this would be way more relevant than a screwdriver, and whether it was a flat head or phillips.

I think Gilbreath's statement was just badly misconstrued by the reporter, he did not actually say the "running around the car" part.

Mr. Martin is giving a second hand account of a second hand account. There is room for some natural human error in there that could explain the discrepancy.

However, a HUGE related issue is that Crump stated that GZ started following TM at 6:54 which gives a lot of time for multiple encounters but really hasn't been explored as far as I can tell.

You'll see the phone calls when it came in at 6:54. He then says, I think this dude is following me. And she talks about how he kind of slows down and he's trying to look in the car like, I think this dude is following me. And she tells him, baby, be careful, just run home. She tells him that.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

My theory is that Crump is just making things up, but if someone wants to work with the theory that Crump is credible then GZ was following TM fifteen minutes before GZ called the police. That gives lots of times for a prior interaction.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think it's a fact that GZ loses TM, and does not know where TM is/went for a time, and TM does not go home during that time.

 

[Xulld]

My original post was meant as a rhetorical device

No offense intended, but none of these responses are actual reasons. They are merely acknowledgments that other people arm themselves as well.

So is it rhetorical, or are you really asking?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Yes, in general.

GZ had lost TM, but TM did not go home. GZ is going back to the truck to wait for the police. TM has in the meantime seen GZ still looking for him, and decides to confront him again, walking up to him from behind to ask him again about following him.

I had read references to TM first speaking to GZ when he was in his car but didn't think too much about it until now. This suggests two things to me.
1. GZ doesn't seem to have done a very good job (assumption) at just saying "look I'm with the neighborhood watch".

2. That IF TM attacked GZ it was not because he feared him or thought he was being stalked. More likely I suspect (assumption) he knew exactly why GZ was watching him and had enough of it.

Actually, I think this is where if we wanted to play the hilarious framing after the fact game as those who contend GZ not following the person on the last 911 call and them getting away, proves he did follow TM, then we could contend that TM had been kicked out of school for weed and stolen jewelry and had enough of authority figures. This time he was going to fight back. He realized quite early that GZ was keeping an eye on him and knew exactly why and decided to give him an ass whooping.

I'm not actually arguing that, but two can play at this game. Flame away...

 

[LTC8K6]

So, no, Martin did not ever knock on Zimmerman's window.

Zimmerman's the worst eyewitness of all time. He sees Martin peering into windows, but describes him as "walking around, looking about". He completely fails to mention that Martin had already spoken to him, and has no ides what race the obviously black Martin is, despite being mere inches from him and clearly seeing him. He's unable to remember the names of all three streets that he's been patrolling for who knows how long. And he somehow manages to completely lose someone who he clearly saw run into a narrow pathway with no real place to hide.

You seem to have a copy of Zimmerman's statement to SPD.

Care to share?

TM would indeed have been mere inches away at one point, but it would have been well after the dispatcher inquired about his race.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So, no, Martin did not ever knock on Zimmerman's window.

Except according to to GZ. But he was probably lying about that, just like he was lying about it actually raining, right ?

Zimmerman's the worst eyewitness of all time. He sees Martin peering into windows, but describes him as "walking around, looking about". He completely fails to mention that Martin had already spoken to him, and has no ides what race the obviously black Martin is, despite being mere inches from him and clearly seeing him.

You seem to have trouble following a simple narrative. Martin spoke to him for the first time after George Zimmerman called the non-emergency number.

He's unable to remember the names of all three streets that he's been patrolling for who knows how long.

Evidence he didn't know the street name ? Not like you'll actually respond to me ....

And he somehow manages to completely lose someone who he clearly saw run into a narrow pathway with no real place to hide.

So are you saying he knew were TM was the whole time ? He was lying on the call ? So you pick and choose when he lies and when he tells the truth, depending on which is more convenient for your version of events ?

 

[LTC8K6]

I had read references to TM first speaking to GZ when he was in his car but didn't think too much about it until now. This suggests two things to me.
1. GZ doesn't seem to have done a very good job (assumption) at just saying "look I'm with the neighborhood watch".

2. That IF TM attacked GZ it was not because he feared him or thought he was being stalked. More likely I suspect (assumption) he knew exactly why GZ was watching him and had enough of it.

Actually, I think this is where if we wanted to play the hilarious framing after the fact game as those who contend GZ not following the person on the last 911 call and them getting away, proves he did follow TM, then we could contend that TM had been kicked out of school for weed and stolen jewelry and had enough of authority figures. This time he was going to fight back. He realized quite early that GZ was keeping an eye on him and knew exactly why and decided to give him an ass whooping.

I'm not actually arguing that, but two can play at this game. Flame away...

Well, GZ would be pretty stupid to start a fist fight when he knows the police are almost there, because it's been a few minutes since he called.

But people are stupid sometimes.

 

[Mumbles]

You seem to have a copy of Zimmerman's statement to SPD.

Care to share?

Nope. Sorry, I'm not discussing Zimmerman's account to the police. I'm discussing your laughable account of what happened, in this thread. I have to admit, though, that I'm amused by the absurd defenses that people are giving for Zimmerman, especially since they only manage to confirm him as a hot-head who thought Martin was suspicious due entirely to skin color.

ETA: and this is why I keep saying that Zimmerman's account has not been released yet. His defenders are doing a horrible job, so it's best to let him give his own account of what happened.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think Gilbreath's statement was just badly misconstrued by the reporter, he did not actually say the "running around the car" part.

But during his turn on the stand, Gilbreath drew attention to Zimmerman's assertion to police that Trayvon was at one point running around Zimmerman's car. Gilbreath questioned why that should make Zimmerman fear for his life. “[Zimmerman] was so scared that he still got out of the car and chased Mr. Martin,” Gilbreath said skeptically.

Maybe it was during a commercial break, and that is why cnn transcript doesn't have it - but i haven't the second part, which looks like a direct quote so I can see what he might have said just prior.

Mr. Martin is giving a second hand account of a second hand account. There is room for some natural human error in there that could explain the discrepancy.

Which is why I had initially given it less attention, but am now revisiting.

However, a HUGE related issue is that Crump stated that GZ started following TM at 6:54 which gives a lot of time for multiple encounters but really hasn't been explored as far as I can tell.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html
My theory is that Crump is just making things up, but if someone wants to work with the theory that Crump is credible then GZ was following TM fifteen minutes before GZ called the police. That gives lots of times for a prior interaction.

I already stated I think his whole description of events makes little sense, and I think the GF is not at all what he makes it to be. Even without talking about her possible twitter account or any of that.