JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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A question (not for our brain-tied friend):

Am I understanding correctly the contention that if there is a "blow out" to a region of the head it therefore follows that the point of entry was in some specific or largely general way opposite this region? So, if true, a "blow out" in the rear of JFK's head requires a shot from somewhere to his front, according to what is being suggested, yes?

Put another way, is a "blow out" of this nature (bullet to the body) always a blow out (opposite entry) and not possibly a blow back (same side as entry)?
 
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I just find it absolutely amazing that after 160 pages that there has yet to be any real conspiracy presented by Baloney-Man. No other shooter identified. No other weapon claimed. Just Oswald is innocent and we should do our homework to find the supposed real shooter/shooters.

As someone who was born a few years after the shooting, I grew up with my elders suspecting Oswald was helped. They did not know by who, or how, but things did not compute.

As a history buff, I find the Kennedy shooting fascinating and all the conjecture surrounding it fascinating as well. We all saw the Zapruder film and I had a 9th grade English teacher bring in her then twenty year old copies of Life magazine with the stills. We watched in school a highlight reel on laserdisc of all things of Cronkite and CBS coverage.

I always tended to think that Oswald acted alone. The fact that even twenty years out that nothing ever concrete came out to change the story. My uncle had the scratchy paper record in Gallery magazine that supposedly had the four shots that were presented to the HSCA and of course you could not make out ANY shots, let alone four of them.

The Nova special in 1988 introduced me to Badgeman and such and I thought it was really well done.

It really was not until about 1998 that I became truly satisfied that it was just Oswald. With the internet, I could fully run and see the other films shot at the same time. I checked conspiracy sites, read essays and such and never got the sense that there was anything about a sinister conspiracy to be had.

After asking Hank the other day on what changed his mind I sat down an read two sections of the WC Report, the Texas trip chapter and the walkthrough of the shooting.

It's clear that they did not nail everything down. They do not even reach a definitive conclusion on which shot missed or have the timeline correct on how far apart the total shooting sequence was. Nor do they really explain just why the Single Bullet Works. You can understand why there were doubters.

On the other hand, they nailed a lot of it and came to conclusions based on the same eyewitness testimony that is so misconstrued on this thread by certain posters. I had no idea that they had so many witnesses, including members of the press, that saw the rifle in the window for instance. It was honest about what people saw or did not see or hear and pieced together what they could.

If they had access to the same 3d modeling that we have now through Dale Meyers work, and able to sync all the films together to piece together the entire event, maybe it would seem easier for most to understand. Just having Connally's correct position in the car just puts everything into place.

It is truly amazing just how much primary source material exists on this case and if it was anyone else besides the President of the United States, there would be no question by most thinking people that it was Oswald and just Oswald.

Nearly fifty years on and there is no leading theory ever presented to debunk. Despite the logistical errors made by the Dallas Police, they had this case solved within 90 minutes of the shooting.

My parents were young adults through the Watergate era. I certainly understand why there is such mistrust in general and all about the Kennedy legend, which has done nothing but grow since his death.

As a society, we really do not want to acknowledge that the people or events that we hold so dear can be undone by something so incredibly simple. As Jackie said, it really was some silly little communist that changed everything.

(sorry for the ramble)
 
Hey, who remembers what it was like in the good ol'days when there was no internet? When you had to make do with what the local library had and then the county. Scouring flea markets and garage sales looking for books that were long out of print but referenced in the ones you've read. Coming across a passage that conflicted with something you read elsewhere and having to start pulling other books out ending up with all these books open in front of you cross-checking statements. It was a lot more fun.
 
vtbub wrote:

"I just find it absolutely amazing that after 160 pages that there has yet to be any real conspiracy presented by Baloney-Man. No other shooter identified. No other weapon claimed. Just Oswald is innocent and we should do our homework to find the supposed real shooter/shooters"

Comment:
And I find it equally amazing that anyone who claims to have read the 160 pages can reach such a off base conclusion. I suggest you search the Final Nail where the conspiracy and the actors is explained in detail.
 
vtbib wrote:

As Jackie said, it really was some silly little communist that changed everything.

Comment: Which betrays both Jackie and you own lack of scholarship on the subject. Oswald was a serious man with ties to all Am. Intell agencies and absolutely no communist.
 
I laughed my ass off reading your response. Merely highlighting one word does not do the description justice.

He said the wound extended from the top of the head to the [right*] ear, and from the browline to the back of the head [*we previously agreed on the point that Giesecke said left, when he meant anatomical right].

Precisely what we see in the autopsy photo.

He didn't say the wound was located in the occiput, and only in the occiput, which is what you like to pretend it means.

Hank

NOnsense. I've never claimed the wound was only in the occiput.
 
Let's start with Phil.
I already gave his Warren Commission Testimony.

What do you got?

Hank


"I am absolutely certain, that at least one shot -- the one that blew his head off -- came from the right front. And I will believe that till the day I die -- on my mother's grave." -- Phil Willis

-- Inteview from "The Men Who Killed Kennedy"
 
Remember that McClelland mentioned the back of the head not at all. And everything above is merely your interpretation of what McClelland meant.

It is susceptible of another interpretation, one that fits the physical evidence you discard - the autopsy photo I cited.

So we can go with your interpretation, which necessitates throwing out the hard evidence and going with a witness statement that is not confirmed by any physical evidence, or we can go with my interpretation, which is supported by the physical evidence and doesn't involve an army of people altering the z-film and the autopsy photos and the body.

Hmmm... which one is more reasonable? Which one will Robert choose?

Hank

What "hard" evidence are you referring to? The fake autopsy photos or the worm food???
 
Here's what he said, Robert, with the substitution of right for his stated left, which we both agreed was simply an error on his part:

"Cause of death was due to massive brain and head injury from a gunshot wound of the RIGHT temple."

Where do you see him mention a wound anywhere but the right temple? Where do you see him mention anything but a massive wound?

That's precisely what the autopsy photo I cited shows - a massive wound to the right temple. This wound includes damage to the parietal, temporal, and occipital regions of the skull.

Hank

Dr. Robt. McClelland:
"I think he was shot from the front...I think the rifle bullet hit him in the side of the head and blew out the back of the head...I certainly think that's what happened and that probably somewhere in the front part of the head, in the front part of the scalp, there probably was an entry wound which -- among all the blood and the laceration there, and everything, was not seen by us, or by anyone else perhaps... and it blew out the the back part of his head."

"The cause of death...[was] massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss."

"As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open." (Robert N. McClelland, Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VI, page 33
 
Nor is it identically the rear of the head. The wound is described as extending "...to the occiput," (emphasis added) and the cerebellum is large enough to extrude from a wound to that portion of the cranium. I gave my qualifications for discussing cranial anatomy. What are yours, Robert? Put up or shut up.

picture.php
 
What "hard" evidence are you referring to? The fake autopsy photos or the worm food???

So when will you supply actual evidence the photos are fake? You keep saying it, and not agreeing with your cherry picked misunderstanding of witness statements still doesn't make it so.
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=5908[/qimg]

Roberts qualifications are a drawing where he assumes lobes equate to regions of the head (though they do not equate directly to bones) and a drawing of a red arrow?

Hmmm.

My first thought is: Some qualification
My second thought: the extent of the wound described does not have to relate to the direction of travel as the arrow suggests. The description, as in the autopsy photo, suggests an exterior wound whose limits are at either end of the arrow, not a bullet path.

My third, considered point is that if that is where the bullet went, then how can Crenshaw have managed to put the entry wound on the throat? And how could that path possibly align to the grassy knoll?
 
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=808&pictureid=5908[/qimg]

Someone else's illustration of a brain establishes your expertise in skeletal anatomy? How does that work?

No, Robert. I covered this at length. Posting some irrelevant online GIF with no accompanying discussion doesn't refute that, or even materially address it. The wound is described as extending "...to the occiput." I gave a lengthy description of cranial anatomy including instructions for locating the occipital bones on your own cranium. Other people managed to read and follow those instructions.

You're clearly unqualified and incompetent to discuss cranial anatomy. Next argument please.
 
Just trying to make it fair.

How does systematically ignoring every question I ask you remotely constitute fairness?

Head in the sand. Others can see that I'm asking you questions, and they can see how you dodge them. Who do you think you're fooling?

Let's start by wrapping up White and Wilson. Care to take a crack and the list of questions I posted yesterday regarding them?

Then we'll move on to quiz you on cranial anatomy. Still think this is a fair fight? Think again.
 
vtbub wrote:

"I just find it absolutely amazing that after 160 pages that there has yet to be any real conspiracy presented by Baloney-Man. No other shooter identified. No other weapon claimed. Just Oswald is innocent and we should do our homework to find the supposed real shooter/shooters"

Comment:
And I find it equally amazing that anyone who claims to have read the 160 pages can reach such a off base conclusion. I suggest you search the Final Nail where the conspiracy and the actors is explained in detail.

I went back just now and re-read all the assertions you made.

At best, you have the usual anybody but Oswald suspects in a mish-mash.

At worst, you slandered anyone and everyone one not named Oswald.

Seriously, Kenny O'Donnell and Tip O'Neill? JFK's best friend and top pupil? (It's a rhetorical question)

You have yet to actually argue for what you think the sequence of events were in the plaza. Never told us where on the knoll the shots came from. Never told us who fired them. Never said which, if any, shots missed. Just it was not Lee.

So, what exactly happened in Dealy Plaza?
 
Do not personalize your arguments and remain civil and polite. Consider this mod box notice that further bickering and incivility will result in this thread being placed on moderated status, as well as moderation action against individual posters (possibly including suspension and/or banning).
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
 
I went back just now and re-read all the assertions you made.

At best, you have the usual anybody but Oswald suspects in a mish-mash.

At worst, you slandered anyone and everyone one not named Oswald.

Seriously, Kenny O'Donnell and Tip O'Neill? JFK's best friend and top pupil? (It's a rhetorical question)

You have yet to actually argue for what you think the sequence of events were in the plaza. Never told us where on the knoll the shots came from. Never told us who fired them. Never said which, if any, shots missed. Just it was not Lee.

So, what exactly happened in Dealy Plaza?

Conspiracy was proved in that the fatal shot came from the vicinity of the grassy Knoll. Some of the individuals involved were named. Who the actual shooters were from each location is a matter of hearsay and speculation. But the fact of conspiracy is well established and that is the main point of the thread.
 
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