JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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TomTom wrote:
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1) witnesses are invalidated by material evidence.

Comment:
NO. IN the case of the fake autopsy photos, the alleged "material evidence" is invalidated by the on-the-scene witnesses. Obviously.
 
The purpose of listing 40 plus on the scene medical witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of the head, is to point out that logically the fatal shot came from the right front -- the grassy knoll. In the Case of Newman, while he did not say he observed a large blow-out in the back of the head, he is not a medical witness, but a Dealey Plaza witness who did not need to see the large blow-out in the back of the head to prove the shot came from the knoll, His testimony is that the shot did indeed come from the knoll, thus there is no need for him to have observed the back of the head.

From the mock trial:

Bill Newman: I was standing on the curb, in front of the grassy knoll....just as he was in front of me, about 15 feet away, boom the side of his ear fell off,

Spence: Where'd you think the shots were coming from?

BN: Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind.

Spence: Where would that be on this exhibit?

BN: It would be somewhere back in this general area.
(Points to an area on the grassy knoll.)
Ah, so now the evidence provided by the alleged 40+ witnesses logically leads to a conclusion. Before it was proof, now it's only logic. There's a massive difference, Rude Robert.

Hang on a minute, Rude Robert, are you seriously claiming that Bill Newman's thinking where the shot(!) came from is really proof of where the shot(!) came from? Again, there's a massive difference, Rude Robert
 
There was no poetic license. Crenshaw helped in trying to save the President. Read the damn book.

So you believe he did play a central role?

Crenshaw himself disagrees. He claimed there was poetic license taken. Why did he say that Robert? Why claim his role was exagerated?
 

Ok. It's all baloney. So please correct me by directing me to a post where you supplied evidence from a bonafide photo-analyst that the autopsy photos were faked, giving details of how, and the photoartefacts that prove it to be so.

Of course, that doesn't alter the fact your 40+ witnessess just dont say what you claim.
 
TomTom wrote:
:
1) witnesses are invalidated by material evidence.

Comment:
NO. IN the case of the fake autopsy photos, the alleged "material evidence" is invalidated by the on-the-scene witnesses. Obviously.

Except claims of a blow out to the back of the head are disproven by the photos.
Obviously.

Ironically the point your interpretation of those witnessess misrepresents their statements is confirmed. Obviously.

Still, you are making the assertion. I set the minimum standard of evidence to convince me. Repeating your flawed logic wont make me change my mind. The witnessess are discredited by material evidence. Your opinion of what should convince me matters as muchas the colour of my socks.
 
Rude Robert, please explain the physics by which a bullet travels through the temple then tears off the side of the head. Alternatively, please cite your source for asserting this.
Admit it, Rude Robert, you can't answer this, can you. In fact, you can't even start to answer this, can you. You have absolutely no clue where to start.

This is a classic illustration of what we've been explaining to you regarding the meaning of an 'assertion'. You made an assertion. You've provided absolutely no support for your assertion, because you have none (which explains why you've elected to rudely ignore the request for such support, as usual). And now, you've painted yourself into a corner.

The reason you refuse to answer many questions and provide substantiating support is that you know that it will show you to be the phoney, shallow, blind follower that you are. And you know that that will serve to invalidate everything that you've posted here, and everything you stand for.

Your cover's well and truly blown, Rude Robert, and I'll gladly take either no response to this or your regulation 'baloney' as a cowardly admission of such.

It's chips 'n' hame for you, dear chap.
 
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THE DOCTOR'S WORLD; 28 Years After Dallas, A Doctor Tells His Story Amid Troubling Doubts
By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN, M.D
Published: May 26, 1992
New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/26/h...ory-amid-troubling.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


Indeed, another doctor has confirmed such a call, although the details and who made it are not clear.

The doctor, Phillip E. Williams, now a brain surgeon in Dallas, was an intern pumping blood into Oswald's right leg. In an interview, Dr. Williams said he had long remembered reports of two White House telephone calls to the operating room.

"I vividly remember someone said, and I can't say who it was, the White House is calling and President Johnson wants to know what the status of Oswald is," Dr. Williams said, adding, "I heard the statement in the operating room, and it was not Dr. Crenshaw's book or anyone else who revived my thoughts about this because I have said this for years."

This is a perfect example (albeit 20 yrs old) of why the JFK assassination will never be resolved in the court of public opinion. Even the surgeons at Parkland Memorial who played minor roles in treating JFK and/or Oswald, or no role whatsoever, are inflating their roles for ego, profit, or a place in history. How in the world, a half century later, are we supposed to judge fact from fiction?
 
This is a perfect example (albeit 20 yrs old) of why the JFK assassination will never be resolved in the court of public opinion. Even the surgeons at Parkland Memorial who played minor roles in treating JFK and/or Oswald, or no role whatsoever, are inflating their roles for ego, profit, or a place in history. How in the world, a half century later, are we supposed to judge fact from fiction?


The same way we always do.
The original source materials are still the best.
Usiong that avoids most of the problems with memories faiding after 20, 30, or 40 years.
It's not perfect, but it leads to one inexorable conclusion, that Lee Oswald, with his rifle, shot and killed JFK from the Depository.

There was no grassy knoll shooter, no storm drain shooter, no overpass shooter, No Dal-Tex Building shooter, no Criminal Courts building shooter, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

And there is no evidence of conspiracy.

Hank
 
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The original source materials are still the best.
It avoids most of the problems with memories faiding after 20, 30, or 40 years.
It's not perfect, but it leads to one inexorable conclusion, that Lee Oswald, with his rifle, shot and killed JFK from the Depository.

There was no grassy knoll shooter, no storm drain shooter, no overpass shooter, No Dal-Tex Building shooter, no Criminal Courts building shooter, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

And there is no evidence of conspiracy.
baloney (just to pip Rude Robert at the post!) :D
 
The purpose of listing 40 plus on the scene medical witnesses who observed a large blow-out in the back of the head, is to point out that logically the fatal shot came from the right front -- the grassy knoll. In the Case of Newman, while he did not say he observed a large blow-out in the back of the head, he is not a medical witness, but a Dealey Plaza witness who did not need to see the large blow-out in the back of the head to prove the shot came from the knoll, His testimony is that the shot did indeed come from the knoll, thus there is no need for him to have observed the back of the head.

From the mock trial:

Bill Newman: I was standing on the curb, in front of the grassy knoll....just as he was in front of me, about 15 feet away, boom the side of his ear fell off,

Spence: Where'd you think the shots were coming from?

BN: Sir, I thought the shots were coming from directly behind.

Spence: Where would that be on this exhibit?

BN: It would be somewhere back in this general area.
(Points to an area on the grassy knoll.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4NbiOihaCs


So he's not a medical witness, he didn't observe a blowout in the back of the head, and he's on your list of 40+ medical witnesses who observed a blowout in the back of the head falsely?

Thank you, Robert. That's only what we've been saying all along.

Create another list for guys like Newman who you believe gave testimony consistent with a Grassy Knoll shot.

He doesn't belong on the list of medical witnesses who observed a blowout in the back of the head. You just admitted that.

And Newman pointed to an area about 90 degrees from the the grassy knoll fence where a shooter is typically placed. Newman's source, then, would place a shooter BEHIND and to the right of JFK, not to his right FRONT. You can only get away with claiming Newman's testimony is consistent with a grassy knoll shooter by defining the area of the grassy knoll as the large expanse of grass to his left, to his right, and behind him, and everything behind that grass.

By your definition, the TSBD shooter was a grassy knoll shooter. Your definition is too broad if you're going to encompass everything to the left, right, or anywhere behind Newman as the grassy knoll.

Thanks again!

Hank
 
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TomTom wrote:
:
1) witnesses are invalidated by material evidence.

Comment:
NO. IN the case of the fake autopsy photos, the alleged "material evidence" is invalidated by the on-the-scene witnesses. Obviously.

You really have no conception of evidence works do you? If there is a physical evidence that contradicts eye witness accounts then you have to discount the eye witnesses, unless you can provide evidence other than the eyewitness claims to support the notion the the physical evidence has been altered. That's the way it work Robert, and no amount of foot stamping or hand waving on you part is going to change it.
 
Robert,

Per your rules, here is one question for you. Which of the following accounts is incorrect and should be rejected?

A) Crenshaw's statements

Pg 2: "The entire right hemisphere of President Kennedy's brain was obliterated. . . . "
Pg 78: "Then I noticed that the entire right hemisphere of his brain was missing, beginning at his hairline and extending all the way behind his right ear."
Pg 86: "His entire right cerebral hemisphere appeared to be gone. It looked like a crater, an empty cavity."
Pg 87: (Quoting Kemp Clark): "My God, the whole right side of his head is shot off... We've got nothing to work with."
Pg 89: "... there is still nothing that can save a victim who loses the entire right side of his brain."


B) McClellan's approved drawing

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=826&pictureid=5905[/qimg]

Easy question, already answered. All of the above.


Well, for once we actually agree! Dr. Crenshaw's description of the head wound and Dr. McLellan's drawing are incorrect and can be ignored. Please update your list of "40+ witnesses" accordingly. Thank you.
 
TomTom wrote:
:
1) witnesses are invalidated by material evidence.

Comment:
NO. IN the case of the fake autopsy photos, the alleged "material evidence" is invalidated by the on-the-scene witnesses. Obviously.


Once again, Robert, you are wrong. You need to tell us how you choose to accept one witness's testimony over another's conflicting testimony. What about when one witness makes statements that conflict with their own earlier statements? This is the case here. Are you deciding on what you want the result to be, then cherry picking statements that support that and ignoring everything else? It is more proper to look at the totality of the witenesses and the totality of their statements. Using some statements from some witnesses to throw out the photos, video, and autopsy report is intellectually dishonest.

Here are three of your own "on-the-scene" witnesses. There are additional witnesses that say the same thing which you seem to ignore. Their statements below are consistent with the photos and video taken at the scene and are consistent with the autopsy photos.

SECRET SERVICE AGENT CLINT HILL
“I could see the back of his head and there was a gaping hole above his right ear about the size of my palm.”

BILL NEWMAN
“And then as the car got directly in front of us, well, a gun shot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side, the side of the temple.”
"that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear..."

GAYLE NEWMAN
"I saw blood all over the side of his head"
"he was shot in the head right at his ear or right above his ear. ... The President, his head just seemed to explode, just bits of his skull flew in the air and he fell to the side..."
 
Even [minor participants] are inflating their roles for ego, profit, or a place in history.

The same has become true for 9/11 and has been generally true for UFO reports. Minor participants, standers-by, and just plain imposters have fabricated or embellished reports in order to amplify their association with noteworthy events. This is a problem all historians have to face.

How in the world, a half century later, are we supposed to judge fact from fiction?

The same way we've always done: with a sober and dispassionate approach to the evidence, and a good dose of skepticism and critical thinking. And no, "skepticism" doesn't necessarily mean always doubting the "official story." In fact, even the term "official story" bespeaks the belief of some conspiracy theorists in a shadowy, omnipotent Ministry of Truth that concocts what the masses are intended to believe.

It's not perfect, but it leads to one inexorable conclusion, that Lee Oswald, with his rifle, shot and killed JFK from the Depository.

The most credible story doesn't have to be perfect. No story in history is free from inaccuracy, misattribution, embellishment, inconsistently, and incompletness. The most credible story has to be the one, among all those that are plausible, that explains the most evidence with the least loose ends.

Conspiracy theories rarely compete well. The evidence they seek to explain is generally the outlying or misunderstood, misperceived evidence -- and they explain it only at the egregious expense of the majority of central evidence. That's why conspiracy theories generally acknowledge that there's a wealth of evidence in favor of the common belief, but that it has all been doctored, faked, or otherwise compromised. It's a tortured tale that amounts essentially to "All the evidence points here, but I'm going to believe something else." All the wild unsupported accusations of forgery and tampering are loose ends.

A good rule of thumb for viable analysis is that it's going toward something rather than away from it. Most conspiracy theories start by trying to discredit the "official story." They pick at it, kick holes in it, try to show that it's somehow suspiciously incomplete, and identify "inconsistencies" and "anomalies" in it that they say make it hard to believe. This is supposed to curry belief in some other theory, which usually has a whole lot less evidence in favor of it than the mainstream belief. There are an infinite number of ways you can run away from some conclusion, so that's why the typical conspiracy theory ends up being a gaggle of completely unrelated, often conflicting stories. If you take all the JFK assassination theories collectively, there were shooters all over the plaza. There would have been a hail of bullets. A plethora of incompatible "alternate" theories, all trying to explain the same evidence, are just a multiplication of loose ends.
 
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