Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[RandFan]

Thanks for clarification.

This is the bit that freaks me out. I have difficulty seeing it as anything other than a licence to kill people you don't like.

Want someone dead? Pick a fight, start losing, shoot them. Job done.

Does this also make dueling legal in Florida? If properly witnessed there would be no question that the other party intended to kill or inflict serious bodily harm. The self defense claim wold therefore stand.

Interesting.

 

[curi0us]

I missed that. IDK, maybe these pages from Mr. Martins t-mob account are less than useful....

I dunno. It seems crazy to me that no investigators or media noticed/checked the time zone issue on the call logs, but after Gilbreath's display in court I'd be willing to believe there is something that obviously wrong with the logs and Gilbreath/O'sheen just didn't realize it.

 

[johnny karate]

So on the list of things that Martin did to make Zimmerman "fear for his life" we have:

1) Repeatedly bashing his head on on the ground

2) Attempted smothering

3) Reaching for Zimmerman's gun

4) Possibly being armed himself

Am I missing anything? Like maybe a machete or arsenic are in the mix somehow? Personally, I suspect Martin might have injected Zimmerman with paralytic that prevented Zimmerman from being able to do anything while Martin ran through these various murder scenarios.

And was it the aggregate of these four things that prompted Zimmerman to fear for his life, or was it a situation in which Zimmerman said to himself "Head bashing and smothering are all in good fun, but this kid person who his close to my own age is going for my gun, and also, he might have his own gun"?

 

[LTC8K6]

So on the list of things that Martin did to make Zimmerman "fear for his life" we have:

1) Repeatedly bashing his head on on the ground

2) Attempted smothering

3) Reaching for Zimmerman's gun

4) Possibly being armed himself

Am I missing anything? Like maybe a machete or arsenic are in the mix somehow? Personally, I suspect Martin might have injected Zimmerman with paralytic that prevented Zimmerman from being able to do anything while Martin ran through these various murder scenarios.

And was it the aggregate of these four things that prompted Zimmerman to fear for his life, or was it a situation in which Zimmerman said to himself "Head bashing and smothering are all in good fun, but this kid person who his close to my own age is going for my gun, and also, he might have his own gun"?

Well, Zimmerman's story is about all we have if we dismiss the injuries, and Zimmerman's story is what the prosecutor has to break.

Unless there's a hidden bombshell out there for either side, we seem to have all we are going to get.

 

[kedo1981]

So Crimresearch isn’t Travon held to the same standard?
If Zimmerman acted like a jerk then TM could respond like wise.
He chose to fight GZ because GZ was being a dik, who was really at fault then?
Was GZ indeed a legit neighborhood watch, does this not allow him the right to at least follow and observe a “suspicious person”, but it does not give the person who they, rightly or wrongly, follow, the right to kick their ass.
I may have missed the part of the thread that discusses the mental state of a 17 year old kid who when confronted by a person that indentifies themselves as being an armed, neighborhood watch person and still chooses to fight.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, Zimmerman's story is about all we have if we dismiss the injuries, and Zimmerman's story is what the prosecutor has to break.

Unless there's a hidden bombshell out there for either side, we seem to have all we are going to get.

But I have to wonder if it will be important for Zimmerman to have to detail the event or moment that prompted him to "fear for his life", and if the inconsistencies regarding that will come into play.

In the initial police report he said "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me" which would seem to indicate he was in the process of being beaten when he shot Martin. Then at the bond hearing he said he "did not know if [Martin] was armed or not". I'm not sure how that comes into play - or is even relevant - when you are in the process of being beaten to death.

 

[3point14]

That's why lawyers and legislators get the big bucks... to make it as hard to understand as possible.

So true. One would almost think they were obtuse on purpose...

 

[Moon-Spinner]

Okay, now that Zimmerman is out on bail, there are calls all over the internet to kill not only him, but the JUDGE too! What is wrong with people???

Kill The Judge

It makes me wonder more if Zimmerman will get a fair trial, I'm already imagining the potential juries will be in fear of their lives if they were to find Zimmerman not guilty? Will there be calls for their murder too?

 

[crimresearch]

So Crimresearch isn’t Travon held to the same standard?
If Zimmerman acted like a jerk then TM could respond like wise.
He chose to fight GZ because GZ was being a dik, who was really at fault then?
Was GZ indeed a legit neighborhood watch, does this not allow him the right to at least follow and observe a “suspicious person”, but it does not give the person who they, rightly or wrongly, follow, the right to kick their ass.
I may have missed the part of the thread that discusses the mental state of a 17 year old kid who when confronted by a person that indentifies themselves as being an armed, neighborhood watch person and still chooses to fight.

Generally speaking, the mere act of following someone and asking 'what are you doing here?', doesn't allow for a punch in response.

All sorts of factors may alter that, but we don't have any narrative from Trayvon Martin, and not much from Zimmerman (first hand).

I'm not aware of anything that suggests Zimmerman identified himself as armed or anything else, and the Neighborhood Watch doesn't confer any special authority of any kind. They are neighbors, who watch, that's it.

 

[RandFan]

Well, Zimmerman's story is about all we have if we dismiss the injuries, and Zimmerman's story is what the prosecutor has to break.

Without the dead person's side I doubt most prosecutors could break most defendant's story. So long as the shooting was not premeditated then I would think that it's not very difficult to turn a confrontation into reasonably fearing for one's life.

 

[LTC8K6]

But I have to wonder if it will be important for Zimmerman to have to detail the event or moment that prompted him to "fear for his life", and if the inconsistencies regarding that will come into play.

In the initial police report he said "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me" which would seem to indicate he was in the process of being beaten when he shot Martin. Then at the bond hearing he said he "did not know if [Martin] was armed or not". I'm not sure how that comes into play - or is even relevant - when you are in the process of being beaten to death.

These are at different times in the encounter, so I don't think they are contradictions. He was yelling for help while being beaten. He didn't know if Martin was armed or not when he was observing him earlier. He's talking about when Martin had his hand in his waistband, during the 911 call.

Personally, I think it's crystal clear that it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

 

[RandFan]

Okay, now that Zimmerman is out on bail, there are calls all over the internet to kill not only him, but the JUDGE too! What is wrong with people???

Kill The Judge

It makes me wonder more if Zimmerman will get a fair trial, I'm already imagining the potential juries will be in fear of their lives if they were to find Zimmerman not guilty? Will there be calls for their murder too?

Wow. The madness of crowds.

 

[LTC8K6]

Without the dead person's side I doubt most prosecutors could break most defendant's story. So long as the shooting was not premeditated then I would think that it's not very difficult to turn a confrontation into reasonably fearing for one's life.

That's only if you dismiss the other evidence, as I said. We have a lot more than just Zimmerman's tale.

Some posters here are dismissing other evidence like Zimmerman's injuries and witness accounts.

Plus, there is always the possibility that the prosecutor is not crazy, and has evidence we are unaware of.

 

[Checkmite]

Okay, now that Zimmerman is out on bail, there are calls all over the internet to kill not only him, but the JUDGE too! What is wrong with people???

Writing on a Twitter, someone named @Rick_Cobain writes, "Zimmerman released from jail someone kill the judge!!!!!"

Zimmerman released from jail someone kill the judge!!!!!

— (@Rick_Cobain) April 23, 2012

Already 25 other people have retweeted @Rick_Cobain's call for murder.

Man. All over the Internet.

 

[RandFan]

That's only if you dismiss the other evidence, as I said. We have a lot more than just Zimmerman's tale.

Some posters here are dismissing other evidence like Zimmerman's injuries and witness accounts.

A.) The evidence is consistent with either story. Getting your ass kicked doesn't mean you are about to die. B.) You can be reasonably in fear of your life and have no injuries. Contusions are not requisite for a self defense claim.

Plus, there is always the possibility that the prosecutor is not crazy, and has evidence we are unaware of.

Aside from the voice "experts" I seriously doubt that there is any other significant evidence. I think we pretty much know all we are going to know. I suspect the "voice" evidence is too weak to be allowed in and even if it is allowed in I suspect the defense will tear it apart.

Based on my understanding of the law I don't see a legitimate case to be made.

 

[Noztradamus]

So Crimresearch isn’t Travon held to the same standard?
If Zimmerman acted like a jerk then TM could respond like wise.
He chose to fight GZ because GZ was being a dik, who was really at fault then?
Was GZ indeed a legit neighborhood watch, does this not allow him the right to at least follow and observe a “suspicious person”, but it does not give the person who they, rightly or wrongly, follow, the right to kick their ass.
I may have missed the part of the thread that discusses the mental state of a 17 year old kid who when confronted by a person that indentifies themselves as being an armed, neighborhood watch person and still chooses to fight.

Itwas discussed with the bit where GZ says something like "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"
TM says "Do you have a problem with that?"
GZ says something like "No, You have the problem because I have a gun"

OK the bit in yellow is made up, as there have been no claims that GZ revealed he was armed or declared his Captain of the Watch status.

 

[johnny karate]

These are at different times in the encounter, so I don't think they are contradictions. He was yelling for help while being beaten. He didn't know if Martin was armed or not when he was observing him earlier. He's talking about when Martin had his hand in his waistband, during the 911 call.

I think you're right about the "being armed" bit. There are conflicting media reports about what the questions were from Trayvon's mother that Zimmerman was addressing. But it appears she did specifically say in one interview that she wanted to know if Zimmerman knew her son was unarmed.

 

[AlBell]

Okay, now that Zimmerman is out on bail, there are calls all over the internet to kill not only him, but the JUDGE too! What is wrong with people???

Kill The Judge

It makes me wonder more if Zimmerman will get a fair trial, I'm already imagining the potential juries will be in fear of their lives if they were to find Zimmerman not guilty? Will there be calls for their murder too?

The Casey Anthony fiasco implies "yes".

And what will happen when a hung jury (assuming with black representation) is the outcome even if the charges are refiled?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think you're right about the "being armed" bit. There are conflicting media reports about what the questions were from Trayvon's mother that Zimmerman was addressing. But it appears she did specifically say in one interview that she wanted to know if Zimmerman knew her son was unarmed.

I think you are correct, both the age and being armed were topics the mother had brought up, and GZ was [naively/stupidly/sincerely/pick_one] trying to address them.

Of course, now O'mara has to apologize for the apology since it was poorly received:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ients-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...merman-released-bail-20120423,0,7571793.story

Judge unseals file in Trayvon Martin murder case

Not much there except that Corey wanted Zimmerman to appear in a prison uniform instead of a suit.