Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

No you're not. Anybody fairly well educated in physics would have read and understood Einstein's E=mc² paper, and you obviously haven't.
I hadn't read it before today. But then I haven't read quite a lot of seminal papers. But I am actually fairly well educated in physics.

A radiating body loses mass. Even though it emits a massless photon. Which has kinetic energy? Duh?

And when some of the kinetic energy gets out of the box, the mass of the box is reduced. Come on Tubby, think for yourself instead of being a groupie. Work it out. When energy-momentum gets out of the box, the box loses inertia. Symmetry? Ever heard of that? Between momentum and inertia?
I'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself thanks. I've even done it in relation to physics.

Sorry Tubby, but we're talking about Einstein's E=mc² here. Mass is a measure of a system's energy content. And that system loses mass when kinetic energy is removed from that system. What I said isn't utter gibberish. Not a bit.
You said: "Rest mass is "rest energy", it's "how much energy-momentum is there in front of you not travelling with respect to you". This is gibberish. Its incoherent. The words are English but the sentence makes no sense.
 
Farsight, does Relativity+ predict that the Higgs boson does not exist

That it would be a bit of a damp squib. There haven't been any spectacular discoveries.
You are wrong, e.g.
November: LHCb finds CP violation in charm
December: LHC glimpses Higgs

And the March 2012 release that is strong evidence of the Higgs boson: What is Higgs telling us so far?

Farsight, does Relativity+ predict that the Higgs boson does not exist?
Your comments implies that this is what Relativity+ predicts. But we should have an explicit answer from you.

P.S. Farsight, what does Relativity+ predict for the CP violation in charm quarks? For that matter what does it predict for any CP violation?
 
That it reduces with gravitational potential.
That is realy vague - reduces by how much?
How about an equation to show how much the fine structure constant varies with gravitational potential.

How about an equation that states that the fine structure constant cannot vary with gravitational potential:
Three equivalent definitions of α in terms of other fundamental physical constants are:
8a685fb411de0b0a1f1663cd66b432a0.png
where:
Note the absence of any gravitational constants like G.
P.S. In case you go about the speed of light varying: c is a constant and the coordinate speed of light means that a set of coordinates can be picked where the fine structure constant is as close to zero as you want (in fact any value).
 
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That understood, here's your first problem: It is not enough to simply claim (no matter how many times) that electrons are "photons trapped in a box". You must show how your model either leads to more accurate predictions than the SM, or matches the predictive power of the SM while having a simpler structure. However, you haven't developed your vague framework of ideas into a proper mathematical model, so there is no way to extract such predictions from it.
(bold added)

And, I claim, he never will. Why? Because he cannot.

Farsight's grasp of physics is limited to 'looks-like' pictures and diagrams, based on pre-Newtonian concepts of absolute time and space.

It is impossible - in such a worldview - to start from that foundation and build an internally consistent, quantitative model ... one that can be used, objectively and in an independently verifiable manner, to develop hypotheses, and make quantitative predictions (which may be tested against hard scientific evidence).

Your second problem is that some of the claims you are making contradict what we already know. For example, photons are bosons and so do not obey the Pauli exclusion principle (if this were not true, lasers wouldn't work). Electrons, on the other hand, are fermions and do obey the exclusion principle (if this were not true, chemistry would be radically different). If electrons really were photons whizzing around in little loops, the exclusion principle would not apply and none of us would be here.
Yeah, but ...

As Farsight's worldview does not allow the acceptance of the mathematical, quantitative ideas which underlie the concepts of bosons and fermions, this "problem" is not even visible (i.e. comprehensible) to him! So, among other things, the "if not true" parts of your post are equivalent to gibberish (in this worldview).
 
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(bold added)

And, I claim, he never will. Why? Because he cannot.

Farsight's grasp of physics is limited to 'looks-like' pictures and diagrams, based on pre-Newtonian concepts of absolute time and space.

It is impossible - in such a worldview - to start from that foundation and build an internally consistent, quantitative model ... one that can be used, objectively and in an independently verifiable manner, to develop hypotheses, and make quantitative predictions (which may be tested against hard scientific evidence).

Yeah, but ...

As Farsight's worldview does not allow the acceptance of the mathematical, quantitative ideas which underlie the concepts of bosons and fermions, this "problem" is not even visible (i.e. comprehensible) to him! So, among other things, the "if not true" parts of your post are equivalent to gibberish (in this worldview).

I fully agree, however...

To be honest, I gave up some time ago believing that Farsight might publicly acknowledge that his ideas are fundamentally wrong; IMHO it will never happen now that his book is published. All that is left is (1) to make available some material (i.e. counterarguments) for the benefit of those who might otherwise be taken in and (2) hopefully (and this is a stretch goal) to at least get him to understand why no-one else accepts his arguments.
 
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Farsight, does Relativity+ predict that the Higgs boson does not exist?
Your comments implies that this is what Relativity+ predicts. But we should have an explicit answer from you.


(While we wait for Farsight's response...)

The book "Relativity+" makes it clear that there is no room for the Higgs in Farsight's alternative physics theory. In that world-view the mass of the electron is explained by modelling it (in words only, not mathematically) as a "self-trapped photon". In the book's own words:

John Duffield said:
The photon is the mediator of the electromagnetic force. It's a "boson". It's got no mass. But all we need to do is tie it in a knot and now it does. That means we don't need to couple to the Higgs field to explain mass. We don't need the Higgs boson, because the photon is boson enough.


This point is repeated later on, accompanied by a claim that CERN's researchers are spinning "a yarn about the fabled Higgs", despite the answers already being at hand (so it is claimed):

John Duffield said:
You appreciate that there's no "coupling" with the Higgs field, not when mass is merely a measure of energy that's not moving in aggregate with respect to the observer. As a result the Higgs field becomes a cipher for space, and the Higgs boson is reduced to a tack-on that offered a testable prediction to make a theory more respectable. We just don't need it, not when pair production creates mass, not when the photon is boson enough.
...
They [the physicists at CERN] spin the yarn about the fabled Higgs boson and unlocking the secrets of the universe, when the answers are already there.


At the end of the book we get this (during the passage about the LHC being a "damp squib" and so on):

John Duffield said:
I don't believe in those extra dimensions that would help things along. Nor do I believe in strangelets. I don't believe the "God particle" will be found either.
 
I hadn't read it before today. But then I haven't read quite a lot of seminal papers. But I am actually fairly well educated in physics.
If you haven't read this before today, then you are not fairly well educated in physics.


I'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself thanks. I've even done it in relation to physics.
So do it now in relation to the symmetry between momentum and inertia.

You said: "Rest mass is "rest energy", it's "how much energy-momentum is there in front of you not travelling with respect to you". This is gibberish. Its incoherent. The words are English but the sentence makes no sense.
Once I have brought you up to a level where you are fairly well educated in physics, it will.
 
Are you worried about your book being favorably reviewed...
Not at all.

...by an Electric Universe crank?
That's rather an ad-hominem thing to say, RC. Try to stick with the physics instead of slagging people off if they challenge your convictions.

Can you explain why you did not publish your amazing theory in a scientific journal?
It isn't my theory, all I did was produce a synthesis of various things I've read, including Einstein material and material by other authors. That said, I sent it to a number of journals and thay all rejected me.

I hope that is is not the usual crank "scientists in a conspiracy against new ideas".
I'm not one for conspiracy theories. I'd say it was more a case of this guy has no credentials so forget it. But make no mistake, peer review is abused to protect vested interest. I've spoken to people who do have credentials, who find that they struggle to get robust evidential papers into high-impact journals.
 
If you haven't read this before today, then you are not fairly well educated in physics.
It's a mildly peculiar definition of 'fairly well educated in physics' to require that someone's read certain groundbreaking papers rather than just understood what they say and their wider impact via other sources.

I've not encountered many physics courses that actually have those original papers on their reading lists, rather than the textbooks that followed later.
 
Farsight, if your contention is that what we call "rest mass" of an electron or neutrino is really due to the kinetic energy of some internal moving parts, you will run into exactly the same two problems you did in the black holes thread.
I didn't run into problems there, ct. I successfully knocked the "waterfall" woo on the head, and more recently knocked on the head the "geodesic dome" garbage wherein a gravitational field consists of flat plates of non-zero extent. I dare say I've kicked KS coordinates into the long grass too, but that one's less emphatic.

A little background first (someone knowledgable please correct me if I get any of this wrong). In the Standard Model, leptons, quarks, gluons, the photon, W±, and Z0 have no internal structure (they are not modelled as self-trapped photons, for example, or bound states of "more fundamental" particles).
True.

The SM makes quantitative and qualitative predictions about the outcomes of experiments. When those experiments are performed, the results agree very well with the theory. Not perfect, AFAIAA - there is evidence for physics beyond the SM, neutrino masses for example - but very good nonetheless.
Yes, but there's 17 adjustable parameters, it isn't like GR where there aren't any. And it would be wrong to say that all aspects of the Standard Model are "very good". The Higgs sector is described as ad hoc by Gian Giudice who campares it unfavourably with the symmetry aspects. Plus it doesn't cover gravity, there's other gaps that you already know about, and further gaps that you don't. For example it doesn't actually tell you how pair production converts a photon into an electron and a positron. That's because the standard model is a work in progress, or should be, but progress appears to have ground to a halt in recent decades as physics withers on the vine amidst a rising tide of idiocracy. Hence here I am doing my bit.

That understood, here's your first problem: It is not enough to simply claim (no matter how many times) that electrons are "photons trapped in a box". You must show how your model either leads to more accurate predictions than the SM, or matches the predictive power of the SM while having a simpler structure. However, you haven't developed your vague framework of ideas into a proper mathematical model, so there is no way to extract such predictions from it.
How many times do I have to say it: it isn't my model. The mathematical modelling has been done by people whose papers I've read, but they struggle to get into journals and then struggle to get any media publicity.

Your second problem is that some of the claims you are making contradict what we already know.
They don't. That's your misreading and misunderstanding.

For example, photons are bosons and so do not obey the Pauli exclusion principle (if this were not true, lasers wouldn't work). Electrons, on the other hand, are fermions and do obey the exclusion principle (if this were not true, chemistry would be radically different). If electrons really were photons whizzing around in little loops, the exclusion principle would not apply and none of us would be here.
Not so. Think of photons as waves propagating linearly. They can ride over one another. They can overlap. They're bosons. Now think of the same kind of wave trapped in a closed path because it's moving through itself. Look up displacement current for this. You've now got angular momentum, spin, rotation, standing-wave orbitals. It's like a vortex. And two vortexes cannot overlap just as two whirlpools cannot overlap. They're fermions.

The difference is one of configuration. Change the stress-energy configuration and you change the particle. It's now a different particle with different properties.
 
It's a mildly peculiar definition of 'fairly well educated in physics' to require that someone's read certain groundbreaking papers rather than just understood what they say and their wider impact via other sources.
I'm sorry edd, but anybody who has been "fairly well educated in physics" who has not read Einstein's E=mc² paper has been badly educated in physics. You canot understand what a paper says from some other source that totally omits the crucial point of that paper: when the system loses kinetic energy that system loses mass.

I've not encountered many physics courses that actually have those original papers on their reading lists, rather than the textbooks that followed later.
I think that's part of the problem actually. I'm forever saying Einstein said this or Einstein said that and referring to the paper concerned, but nobody's ever seen it before. And sometimes what they've been taught on the course is the exact opposite to what Einstein said. Doubtless they've been served up the fabulous Higgs boson smothered in cosmic treacle, but nobody teaches them that the Higgs mechanism accounts for a mere 1% to the mass of matter. And nobody teaches them why E=mc² or that E=hf flipflops to E=mc² in pair production and annihilation. Sometimes it feels like they're being taught cargo-cult physics instead of physics. And then like groupies they will not do their own reasearch, and they will not think for themselves.
 
I'm sorry edd, but anybody who has been "fairly well educated in physics" who has not read Einstein's E=mc² paper has been badly educated in physics.
Well, I've done alright myself, despite my bad education.

You canot understand what a paper says from some other source that totally omits the crucial point of that paper: when the system loses kinetic energy that system loses mass.
You have no idea which sources I have read or who I've been taught by. You're guessing.

I think that's part of the problem actually. I'm forever saying Einstein said this or Einstein said that and referring to the paper concerned, but nobody's ever seen it before. And sometimes what they've been taught on the course is the exact opposite to what Einstein said. Doubtless they've been served up the fabulous Higgs boson smothered in cosmic treacle, but nobody teaches them that the Higgs mechanism accounts for a mere 1% to the mass of matter. And nobody teaches them why E=mc² or that E=hf flipflops to E=mc² in pair production and annihilation.
Errm, it doesn't. In pair production the total energy of the photon is divided between the masses of the electron and positron and their kinetic energies. One photon to two leptons.

Sometimes it feels like they're being taught cargo-cult physics instead of physics. And then like groupies they will not do their own reasearch, and they will not think for themselves.
Funny, cos I've done my own research.
 
Someone who is so knowledgeable about relativity might do well to note that E=mc2 isn't the whole story, for example. In modern parlance, "mass" is always implied to be rest mass and nothing else.
 
It isn't my theory, all I did was produce a synthesis of various things I've read, including Einstein material and material by other authors. That said, I sent it to a number of journals and thay all rejected me.

.

I wonder why.
 
Nothing contradicts what I said - photons do not interact directly with other photons.
Yes they do. Two high energy photons can interact to create an electron and a positron via pair production. No other particles are present. The virtual particles which are said to mediate the process are virtual. Their underlying reality is the evanescent wave which is the potential gradient.

No. And before we continue any further on issues such as the internal structure of electrons and pair production, let's come to an agreement on these SR/neutrino issues. I need to understand exactly what your position is, so if you don't mind could you indicate whether you agree with each of the following points? A simple yes or no for each is required.
OK.

In SR, given any particle with non-zero rest mass, travelling in a vacuum, all inertial observers will agree that the particle travels slower than c = 299792458 m/s.
Yes. But you're missing the whole point of Einstein's E=mc² paper. The radiating body loses kinetic energy to lose its mass. That kinetic energy departs linearly at c. Before it did so it was still kinetic energy. It was still moving at c. But it wasn't exiting the body, because it was in a closed path. And all of the body consists of kinetic energy. You cannot move a body consisting of kinetic energy moving at c at the speed at which that kinetic energy moves.

In SR, given any particle travelling slower than c, there exist inertial reference frames in which that particle is at rest.
Yes. If a particle is travelling slower than c you can catch it up and it looks like the particle is at rest. It's similar to flying above an oceanic swell wave in a helicopter. If the sea is otherwise calm and the sky is clear, it's like hovering over a bump in the ocean.

In SR, given any particle with zero rest mass, travelling in a vacuum, all inertial observers will agree that the particle travels at exactly c.
Yes. But again you're missing the point of Einstein's E=mc² paper and you still aren't understanding mass. When rest mass is non-zero it only means that the kinetic energy moving at c is confined in some closed path, and so is at rest in aggregate with respect to the system or body or particle. When rest mass is zero it only means that the kinetic energy is moving linearly at c.

In SR, given any particle travelling at exactly c, there does not exist any intertial frame in which that particle is at rest.
No, because you can't catch it up because you're a body where the kinetic energy is confined in a closed path at c and you can't have it going round and round at c and moving linearly at c. Because light can't go faster than light.

Based on currently available data, it is more reasonable to believe that at least two of the three known flavours of neutrino have non-zero rest mass than to believe otherwise.
It's more reasonable to understand E=mc² and rest mass along with effective mass, and note that we have never seen a neutrino at rest, and then conclude that in at least two of the three known flavours of neutrino the kinetic energy takes a non-linear path. The more non-linear or "curly" that path is, the greater the effective mass. Make it so non-linear that the path is closed, and then the effective mass is the rest mass.
 
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Someone who is so knowledgeable about relativity might do well to note that E=mc2 isn't the whole story, for example. In modern parlance, "mass" is always implied to be rest mass and nothing else.
I did. I said this:

"Perhaps the difficulty of three-dimensional geometry is why people have so much difficulty with mass. Perhaps another reason is language. Perhaps it's a combination of both, or more, I'm not sure. But we use the word "mass" in many different ways, and it really doesn't help. The accepted definition of mass is rest mass, which is the same thing as invariant mass, intrinsic mass, and proper mass - it's defined as the total energy of a system divided by c². There’s also active gravitational mass which tells you how much gravity the energy causes, and passive gravitational mass, which is a measure of how much an object is attracted by gravity. People also talk of inertial mass, which tells us how much force we need to apply to accelerate or decelerate an object. It doesn't apply for a photon because it travels at c, and you can't make it go faster or slower. Then there’s relativistic mass, which is just a measure of energy, which is why it applies to a photon. When you apply it to a cannonball travelling at 1000m/s, it’s a measure that combines the rest mass energy with the kinetic energy into total energy".
 
...Errm, it doesn't. In pair production the total energy of the photon is divided between the masses of the electron and positron and their kinetic energies. One photon to two leptons.
In standard pair production where the photon interacts with a nucleus, the photon gets chopped in half, and conservation of momentum means some of the energy goes to the nucleus. Not much, because it's much more massive than the electron and positron, but some.
 
In standard pair production where the photon interacts with a nucleus, the photon gets chopped in half, and conservation of momentum means some of the energy goes to the nucleus. Not much, because it's much more massive than the electron and positron, but some.

Wikipedia clearly agress with what I just said:
Wikipedia said:
The energy of this photon can be converted into mass through Einstein's equation E = mc2 where E is energy, m is mass and c is the speed of light. The photon must have enough energy to create the mass of an electron plus a positron. The mass of an electron is 9.11 × 10-31 kg, the same as a positron.

If there is more energy in the photon than this bare minimum, the electron and positron will have some kinetic energy – meaning they will be moving.

In other words, if the photon has less energy than 2mec2 there will be no pair production, if it has more energy than that then the extra energy will lead to the electron and positron having kinetic energy. (I'm ignoring the tiny recall energy of the nucleus here for simplicity.)
 

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