General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[dafydd]

Adolf Hitler had more skills than you are going to achieve in your whole life...

Oh dear, very funny. The only skills he had were hate and malice. Now, are you a troll or a real Hitler hugger?

 

[Clayton Moore]

This is still the same mistaken assumption you have been told about before CM: Nazi policies against the Jews were not always the same at each moment and every place. Like most things in life and history it is normally more complicated than that.

Shouldn't those guards be aware that they allegedly gassed and killed millions of Jewish children, women, and men. Did they think or did the High Command think that they had gotten away with murdering 6/4.5 million Jewish children, women, and men. Yet they trudged around with group after group evacuating noncombatants from camp after camp.

Although nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition I'm sure no Germans who oversaw or performed the alleged gassing of millions of Jewish children, women, and men expected that they would get away with it.

 

[Nick Terry]

That explanation is just so much clap trap.

That explanation summarises a 9-volume encyclopedia of the concentration camp system and hundreds of separate studies which have fed into the encyclopedia, not to mention separate studies of the evacuations of the camps and the death marches.

After three years of allegedly murdering millions of noncombatants the guards who oversaw the alleged gassing are galavanting around Europe with exhausted women hardly able to keep up.

Wrong. Gross Rosen didn't have gas chambers, it was a work camp complex. And yes, the exhausted women were hardly able to keep up, which is why the guards on many evacuation marches, whether or not they knew about gassing, shot thousands of men and women who couldn't keep up.

So these soldiers require 6 weeks of supplies for themselves and hundreds of women?

except the hundreds of women didn't always get much in the way of supplies, which is why they became exhausted in many such marches.

And, AND these women are not the only camp evacuations in progress.

So? The Soviets evacuated at least 17 million people in the summer of 1941, using a much less efficient transportation system and while the frontlines were being breached to far deeper operational distances than in Germany during 1945.

Shouldn't those guards be aware that they allegedly gassed and killed millions of Jewish children, women, and men.

Whether or not they were aware is irrelevant. The Final Solution was over by the time the evacuation took place. They had been told to guard Jewish women for months beforehand, in order to make these Jewish women work. Then they were told to evacuate the women. So they did. What is so hard to understand here?

Did they think or did the High Command think that they had gotten away with murdering 6/4.5 million Jewish children, women, and men.

Irrelevant. If these guards knew about the Final Solution, they also knew that it had stopped since there were no more gassings at Birkenau. Since so many prisoners and guards were transferred from Auschwitz to Gross-Rosen they probably did know about the Final Solution. But whether or not they knew is irrelevant, since their orders were different.

These guards may not even have been full-time SS men since many camp guards were transferred from the Army and Luftwaffe in 1944. These guards may not have been especially brutal. They may not have wanted to risk being prosecuted after the war. We don't know. That doesn't mean you can make any old crap up.

One should expect human behaviour to vary in such situations. Some hardened SS men would be more brutal, some would realise the Third Reich was a sinking ship, some would be deluded into thinking not all was lost - why on earth would you expect everyone to react in the same way? Human psychology and group behaviour simply isn't like that.

Yet they trudged around with group after group evacuating noncombatants from camp after camp.

No. There were 700,000 prisoners in the camp system in January 1945, of whom about 300,000 were Jews and the rest non-Jews.

In January 1945, three big camp complexes, Auschwitz, Gross-Rosen and Stutthof, were evacuated or began to be evacuated because they were the easternmost camps left and threatened with being overrun by the Soviets. So this displaced 150,000+ prisoners, not all Jews. Many of the evacuations were conducted by rail, only some on foot. Some of the foot marches reached railheads fairly quickly, after a few days or a week. A six week march is exceptional. There were not many like that.

You are talking about several hundred different evacuations from separate sub-camps like Schleiersee. Some of the sub-camps could be evacuated into the main camp and from there, sent westwards by rail. Some were too far away from the main camp to do this. Like, apparently, Schleiersee.

And yes, in some cases later on, the SS guards shot prisoners rather than evacuate them. Point being the responses varied. Expecting there to be a uniform policy in a system of 700 sub-camps is completely batty.

 

[000063]

Who is "we"?

Pretty much everyone in this thread who is not a denier.

You are not in position to demand anything from me.

Yes I am. Just as you're in a position to quote-mine and ignore me.

That's nice. We were not discussing the statistical data, but the witnesses' testimony in general. Since you have admitted to "refuting" only the statistical date when you know we were discussing the testimony in general, you just admitted to using a straw man argument.

And, of course, your laughable reason for contesting the statistical data has nothing to do with whether the Eichmann is kidnapped or not.

Ah, there we go. There, ST, you're wrong.

The statistical accuracy of the data provided has nothing to do with whether Eichmann was kidnapped or not. Your claim regarded Eichmann being kidnapped as a reason to dismiss his claims, you lying SnakeTongue.

 

[tsig]

So now team Holocaust says the non-working children/women were not killed because the alleged gas chambers were no longer being used? So why were they being marched around for almost a year?

Gotta keep your workers healthy.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I am amazed!

I did not know that in 1943's Dutch newspaper published cross words, chess boards and ads!

Your document gave me an very good visual insight about the Dutch media from the 40's.

Just what exactly means?

Geen Straf
bij tijdige aanwijzing van verborgen joden en joodsche vermogenswaarden.​

Google Translate is producing a very dubious translation.

Not all papers published those so, please, share what you find amazing about the Dutch newspaper "Nieuwsblad van het Noorden", published the same day in a different region of the Netherlands.
http://resources2.kb.nl/010410000/pdf/DDD_010414078.pdf

Besides the same "Geen Straf - bij tijdige aanwijzing van verborgen joden en joodse vermogenswaarden" published in the Dordrechtsche Courant linked in the previous comment, this paper also has a "Beschikking
van den Commisaris-Generaal voor den Openbare Veiligheid betreffende het verblijf van joden in de provincies"

My translation.
"Ordinance
from the Commissaris-Generaal for Public Safety regarding the stay of Jews in the provinces"

You think there might be a connection? ... and what could the following mean? "Article 5. jood in den zin van deze beschikking is hij die ingevolge Artikel 4 van de verordening 189/40 betr. de aanmelding van ondernemingen jood is of als jood wordt aangemerkt"

Commissaris-Generaal voor den Openbare Veiligheid was a certain Rauter. Wasn't his name mentioned in this thread recently? On some list of sources from before 1950 that a different poster had requested for some reason he never explained?

 

[000063]

You think that picture proves that Bin Laden had the intention to murder Americans?

No, I think it proves that one cannot claim that bin Laden never plotted to murder Americans based on a single photo.

In case your perception did not notice, Bin Laden is a fictional character created by the international media.

If you think not, prove me wrong, find Bin Laden body laying on the bottom of the ocean and I will recognize that Bin Laden was a real person.

What would stop you claiming that he wasn't someone altered to look like bin Laden? Why is only his dead body acceptable as evidence?

Also, there's the little fact of bin Laden being the scion of a wealthy and prominent Saudi family, with records and evidence and testimony of his life and activities going back longer than you've probably been alive. Like SpringHallConvert, you'd have to prove that every single one of those pieces of evidence is faked, instead of dismissing it out of hand.

So?

I'd like to think you're incapable of getting my point, rather than unwilling.

Where is the evidence which proves Adolf Hitler had kill anyone but the soldiers he fought in the First World War?

In thousands of museums, libraries, and history books. Oh, and there are a few Jewish survivors around who would like a few words with you. Be sure to tell them how they didn't watch people be murdered on an industrial scale, how the numbers tattooed on their arms are all fabrications.

Your flawed logic is not acceptable as reference.

I was pointing out your flawed logic; just because Hitler is not ordering the death of Jews at the time the picture was taken is not evidence that he did not ever do so. If you take a picture of me right now, I am not pooping. Yet it would be fallacious to claim, based on that hypothetical photo, that I have never pooped.

 

[000063]

Adolf Hitler did not have any "day off". He had millions of volks to look after.

You just cannot understand that role.

Adolf Hitler had more skills than you are going to achieve in your whole life...

Given that those skills included murder, backstabbing, bigotry, conquering, and racism, I certainly hope so.

Every once in a while, you let your "patient debater" mask--which was never very good--slip, and we see your true colors.

...Argument:

P ∈ X || A ∼ (Y ∉ X) ≠ A ∃ H ˆ (+ ∃ Nv = ∃)

Completely illogical.

Try again.
...

oh my god what the :

That's it. Welcome to ignore.

 

[000063]

The problem with this type of comment/response/rational is that the 3,000,000 number of alleged Jewish gassing victims eliminates any possibility of an entire camp population being NOT aware of the alleged gassing activity.

Who is making this claim?

That knowledge would preclude any tricking gassing victims into a gas chamber. That said, chaos would be rampant because a looming gas chamber threat.

If only they had men with guns to force people into th--oh, wait, they did. Well, it's not like the prisoners had the idea of resistance systematically beaten out of them--oh, wait, they did.

 

[000063]

Although nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition I'm sure no Germans who oversaw or performed the alleged gassing of millions of Jewish children, women, and men expected that they would get away with it.

Why not? They probably expected to win the war. I doubt that the guards at Guantanamo Bay thought they'd be exposed and hung out to dry, yet they abused prisoners. According to the testimony of the Nazi guards, they were "just following orders". There are numerous studies showing that people follow authority and crowds even when its against their own ethics, most prominently the Milgram experiments. Con men exploit this tendency on a regular basis. There is an extended list on this page, near the bottom, in the "Real Life" folder.

Now that I look back, I realize that a life predicated on being obedient and taking orders is a very comfortable life indeed. Living in such a way reduces to a minimum one's own need to think.
—Adolph Eichmann

 

[ddt]

Although nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition I'm sure no Germans who oversaw or performed the alleged gassing of millions of Jewish children, women, and men expected that they would get away with it.

To add to Dr. Terry's reply: they may also have thought that every kilometer that brought them more westward diminished the chance of falling into the hands of the Soviets, and thus increased their chance of survival and being treated civilly. The Nazis had every reason to fear the treatment they'd get as POW in hands of the Red Army, even if only for the brutal treatment of Soviet POWs by the Nazis and the atrocities committed by the Nazis in the occupied parts of the USSR.

And as a matter of fact, the low-level henchmen did largely get away with it: the (Western) denazification targeted the upper echelons of the Nazi machinery and didn't go after the grunts. Demjanjuk is the exception, not the rule.

 

[A'isha]

Google Translate is producing a very dubious translation.

Really? You don't say...

 

[TSR]

I'm sure no Germans who oversaw or performed the alleged gassing of millions of Jewish children, women, and men expected that they would get away with it.

And you base this "certainty" on .... what?

Your visceral need that it be so, else your denial comes crashing down around your ears?

 

[ddt]

I appreciated the URLs. I could grasp a basic idea about the questions I made.

My native tongue is Brazilian Portuguese.

There are no good books on the Holocaust, or WW2 in (Brazilian) Portuguese?

Your citation of NLG was insightful.

That's the only thing you learnt from those quotes?

I did not know that in 1943's Dutch newspaper published cross words, chess boards and ads!

Your document gave me an very good visual insight about the Dutch media from the 40's.

Not really different from newspapers in other parts of the world, you mean? Except, of course, that the news was censored by the Nazi authorities.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I appreciated the URLs. I could grasp a basic idea about the questions I made.

My native tongue is Brazilian Portuguese.

I learned English when living in UK.

Your citation of NLG was insightful.

The Dutch guilder (Dutch: gulden, IPA: [ˈɣʏldə]; Frisian: gûne, IPA: [ˈɡuːnə]; sign: ƒ or fl.) was the currency of the Netherlands from the 17th century until 2002, when it was replaced by the euro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_guilder​

Fascinating topic, isn't it? Currency. The people listed below equalled NLG 37.50 at the exchange rate applicable on 6 April 1943.

Willem Doof A'dam 25.4.84 Majubastraat 1 II
Levie Snoek A'dam 28.10.1904 President Brandstraat 44 II
Mietje Spier-de Metz A'dam 20.2.1882 Transvaalplein 10 huis
Salomon Spier Leeuwarden 7.1.1875 Transvaalplein 10 huis
Isaac Serlui A'dam 28.8.1858 Transvaalplein 23 boven Amsterdam

According to the "Empfangsbescheinigung" made up on that day, signed by the person who received that amount in payment for delivering these people to the Zentralstelle für jüdische Auswanderung in Amsterdam on April 5, 1943. "Vorschussweise aus Judenvermögen bezahlt."

According to the links below, Levie Snoek lived until May 28 1943. The others died on April 16 1943. 3 days after the receipt was stamped "Sachlich richtig"
http://www.joodsmonument.nl/person/511731
http://www.joodsmonument.nl/person/501409
http://www.joodsmonument.nl/person/488929
http://www.joodsmonument.nl/person/488878
In Memoriam

Is your grasp on the basic idea of your participation in this topic getting better?

 

[Dogzilla]

It's dishonesty no matter how you try to slice it.

LemmyCaution very clearly explained on the previous thread, and has done so again, that he does not consider the Jaeger report evidence for gas chambers, so quit putting words into his mouth. You may also find that you don't get any response from Lemmy for a while as he has informed me he is beyond disgusted with your mendacity, as am I.

If he doesn't believe it is evidence for gas chambers then perhaps he should stop asking me for my analysis of it.

 

[Nick Terry]

If he doesn't believe it is evidence for gas chambers then perhaps he should stop asking me for my analysis of it.

Or perhaps you should stop lying and claiming it is only about fighting partisans.

 

[000063]

...

oh my god what the :

That's it. Welcome to ignore.

For the record, this was the point where I realized that Snakey was either being deliberately obtuse (trolling/lying) or accidentally so. In either case, the chances of making headway were almost nonexistent, and the only effects on my end would be raised blood pressure.

 

[SnakeTongue]

My apologies, you didn't -- *this* time.

You haven't supported "3900 leftover bodies" yet.

You use a single reference of "up to" 6k Jews as the normal death rate.

That is not enough for you? How many Jews gassed per day is necessary to you understand the mathematical demonstration?

You then mindlessly parrot a snippet apparently from CODOH about the total capacity, not even looking at your own "citation" which does not have the quotes to which you repeat the attribution. You obviously don't read German, or at the least did not follow the link you got from Library Boi and company, or you would have noticed this.

The URL leads to the book which printed the transcript of the document addressed by the quote.

It is a reference to the secondary evidence which propose the numbers I used.

You also neglect the fact that more than one body was cremated at a time.

How many bodies a muffle could burn at the same time? Present your numbers.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You can bet your sweet bippy Team Holocaust is blissfully unaware that they are on one big sock it to me roll.

They tricked millions into the gas chambers.
They forced millions into the gas chambers.

Gas chambers which at first were cottages.

The problem with this type of comment/response/rational is that the 3,000,000 number of alleged Jewish gassing victims eliminates any possibility of an entire camp population being NOT aware of the alleged gassing activity.

That knowledge would preclude any tricking gassing victims into a gas chamber. That said, chaos would be rampant because a looming gas chamber threat.