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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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And Lemmycaution remains unwilling or unable (I'll go with unable) to explain to us why he thinks the Jagger Report is evidence of homicidal gas chambers. Maybe one of you other Einsteins can jump in and help the poor boy out.
 
And Lemmycaution remains unwilling or unable (I'll go with unable) to explain to us why he thinks the Jagger Report is evidence of homicidal gas chambers. Maybe one of you other Einsteins can jump in and help the poor boy out.

I'm pretty sure this is a grotesque misrepresentation of whatever LemmyCaution was arguing, especially since this was definitely visited in the previous thread. Have you got a link to where LC said he thought the Jaeger report was evidence of gas chambers? The Jaeger report is, of course, excellent evidence of extermination.
 
Oh, the difficulty to post a simple URL ...
It has been explained to you why URLs were not posted immediately.
Was that aspect of persecution during the 12 year Reich news to you when DDT mentioned it? Where did you look after you were confronted with it? Were the hints useful? What have you found yourself so far?

Geen Straf
bij tijdige aanwijzing van verborgen joden en joodsche vermogenswaarden.
Van bevoegde Duitsche zijde wordt op het volgende gewezen:
Sedert de afkondiging van de beschikking van de GeneralKommissar fuer das Sicherheitswesen inzake het verblijf van joden in de provincien is een groot aantal voortvluchtige Joden of verborgen Joodsche vermogenswaarden door de medewerking van de bevolking achterhaald. Met het oog op de vrijwillig en tijdig verstrekte aanwijzingen zijn in alle gevallen de Nederlanders en hun gezinnen, die oorspronkelijk daaraan deel hadden, zonder straf er vanaf gekomen.
Daarentegen moesten onlangs een aantal Nederlanders worden gearresteerd, die getracht hadden te verhinderen dat de politie kennis kreeg van het verblijf van verborgen Joden of vermogenswaarden.
Ten einde een vergissing in zake het tot het Joodsche ras behooren van woningzoekende personen en tevens het gevaar van strafbare handelingen te vermijden, wordt dringend aanbevolen alle in huiselijke gemeenschap opgenomen personen overeenkomstig de bepalingen onverwijld aan te gevenbij de meest nabije politie autoriteit.
Dordrechtse Courant Woensdag 14 April 1943
http://resources2.kb.nl/010410000/pdf/DDD_010412958.pdf

Do you require translation for Dutch language material?
 
Using Anne Frank as a microcosm for the fate of the Dutch Jews in general, we can say that most of the Dutch Jews were shipped off to Auschwitz--the only death camp for Jews that was still operating and the place where Jews were sent to be exterminated--in August 1944. I don't know what Anne or her family did while the Jews all around her were being gassed 24/7. Probably the same thing all the Dutch Jews did--wait around for their turn to be exterminated in gas chambers as part of the Nazi plan to kill all the Jews in Europe. After they were exterminated and left the camp through the chimney, they were forced to survive a death march to Bergen-Belsen. This is where some of the Dutch Jews got sick and died, like Anne and her sister while others (like their father) didn't succumb to the Nazi extermination program until 1980.

Using this post as a microcosm for the scientific and moral standing of deniers in general, we can say that they deliberately provide false information and denigrate the victims of the Holocaust for no reason whatsoever.
 
Using this post as a microcosm for the scientific and moral standing of deniers in general, we can say that they deliberately provide false information and denigrate the victims of the Holocaust for no reason whatsoever.

Hatred of Jews is the reason. Why don't they just say that?
 
Using Anne Frank as a microcosm for the fate of the Dutch Jews in general, we can say that most of the Dutch Jews ....
Fallacy of composition, which is especially egregious given that you're not even sure what happened to Frank's family.
 
Appellare ad manifestum.

A∈B ∴ C ∴ A∈B

Your logic did not present any indication of people being forced into a gas chamber...
That's strange, I never said "forced" into the chamber. Maybe they were asked politely. Maybe they were lied to, as those killed often were. But please, keep throwing around concepts you don't understand in an attempt to look clever. All you're saying is that I'm saying something that isn't visibly evident, and I'm pretty sure you made up the Latin.

If it is argued that people were in location X when A happened to them, and when we see them they are in location Y, not X, then that does not mean A never happened, especially since there's additional non-video evidence to show that it did.

Or, to repeat, "you can't gas someone to death in an enclosed chamber if they're not in an enclosed chamber". Any more than you can shoot someone to death with a glass of water.

[qimg]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2312/novo1q.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/geralds_1311/6011991607/in/set-72157629767639495

[qimg]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9862/novo3o.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/display/18789994

[qimg]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8796/novo4y.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/geralds_1311/6934257481/sizes/l/in/photostream/

[qimg]http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9991/novo5u.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx4pUKF7I1E
Well, you've certainly shown me that a car of that vintage could not possible have an exhaust pipe on the right side of the--oh, wait.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stokpic/4938403305/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/argentla/5709615504/
http://www.boldride.com/ride/1936/chrysler-imperial-airflow-coupe

Of course, given that a long pipe running out of the rear into a gas chamber isn't a stock feature on any car I know of, I'm not sure why you insist that that is the smoking gun. Clearly, it's an aftermarket modification.

None of which proves that the car wasn't made before the end of the war. Have you even attempted to check the provenance of the video in question, or just focused on "anomalies"?

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/MERCEDES 260D.htm

Who is "we"?
Irrelevant. You're ignoring #677, and you still haven't proved the video is fake.

I am almost reaching the end after the overloaded posts JREF forum users produced to me reply...

Stop by page 18, post 684.
I hope you get to #677, and Wroclaw's actual question, not your straw man.

Here's the thing, ST; even if you do manage to come up with some plausible reason why Eichmann's testimony is unreliable that relates to him being forcibly removed to Israel--as you specifically claimed--the fact that you spent so much time avoiding the question means you did not have it to hand when you started. You would have made a claim, then tried to rationalize it later.
 
Several posts removed to AAH. Stay on topic and do not attack other posters.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
Don't bother. I told him to do exactly that maybe a half-dozen times, and I don't think he even acknowledged it.

I like how, in the post in question, he describes people arriving at a death camp and then says nothing bizarre happens until they are forced to kill thousands per day. Because being in a death camp is perfectly normal.
 
The document you displayed is an order based on the regulation with the filing code listed on it, which was devised by the Gestapo office responsible for criminal matters among the foreign workers employed (and I use that term loosely) in the Third Reich. When this new order with the regulation was received by the Verteiler of the Gestapo office located in Dusseldorf, Germany, he marked it with the filing code 3/43g, indicating that it belonged in a different file than the one the initial regulation was placed in.

"Reichsfuehrer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei" means the order to distribute the regulation probably came from Himmler himself (or someone acting with his authority, anyway). "z. Zt. Feldkommando-stelle" above the date means the order was typed up and sent out to the police offices from Himmler's field headquarters, not from his offices in Berlin.

The regulation itself came from RSHA Amt IV D, which as I said was the Gestapo department dealing with crimes by foreign laborers.

Without seeing the rest of the document, I can't really say any more.

Excellent observation.

It's in volume four of the NMT proceedings (the "green series").

Here:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/04a/NMT04-T1079.htm

Why would you think it's relevant? The different offices of the Third Reich all used different organization structures and header formats. Knowing how the Orpo coded and filed documents tells you absolutely nothing about how the RSHA coded and filed documents!

You're comparing an apple to an orange, and declaring the apple to be a plastic fake because it doesn't look like the orange.

I am comparing apple from tree A with apple from tree B and declaring that apple from tree A was pick from tree B.

[EDIT: Even other SS offices had completely different office formatting...the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt, for instance, used letters in front of Roman numerals to designate departments, such that subsection 3 of office IV of division C of the WVHA would be listed as "Referat C IV 3". If you tried to argue that the Rauff letter was a forgery because it referenced a contradictory office formatting of "II D 3a" when mentioning a referat as compared with the formatting of "C IV 3", you'd be laughed at even harder than you are now.

I agree. That would not be an logical argument since both codes do not have an similar pattern.

Even aside from the fact that, like with the Orpo document above, knowing how the Reichskommissariat Ostland identified its component offices tells you not a single thing about how the RSHA identified its component offices, the fact that this "code" of yours is in the document's subject line doesn't help you when trying to prove how office codes were formatted for the purposes of identifying a document's sending office and filing information.

I am not trying to prove how RSHA identified documents. That is not the base of my argument. I am trying to prove the header of the document 1 is missing important details compared to other documents header. That is why I had presented the documents from other offices.

The formatting of RSHA documents, however, was done according to a specific version of those standards, issued on June 1, 1940, by the head of the personnel office, Amt I: SS-Brigadefuehrer Bruno Streckenbach.

While it would certainly be immensely useful in arguments against deniers on message boards like this one, not every document is available online (or reproduced in trial proceedings that are conveniently available in most reasonably-sized research libraries).

It is not useful against deniers...

It is useful to provide confidence to an sceptical reader agree with your argument.

Do you know any reference for the document? I could try to find an URL if you provide an appropriate reference.

That's because it is a filing code! It's not used to identify each document serially, but to indicate which file the document has been placed in by the Verteiler. Which means that if there are multiple documents covering the same file subject, they would all have the same code!

Which is still false, since I pointed out where the filing code has been handwritten on several of your documents, as well as on additional documents on the Wannsee House website.

Perhaps you did not understand what I mean.

I am arguing the filling code of document 1 is out of context when compared with other documents. No other document use the filling code bellow the left header with handwriting.

What, how the Nazi document distribution and filing system worked? It's been well-understood for ages, by anyone who's ever seriously looked into German wartime documentation. Even Mattogno and Rudolf know how this process worked.

That is why I asked for the evidence, to learn from it.

You cited:

In Yaacov Lozowick's study of the RSHA's bureaucratic system, he noted that Streckenbach was vague in his instructions about the department name ("office code"), and subordinates writing under their superiors' signatures would often not include their own (ie, the subordinate's) office code.

I found:

Yaacov Lozowick's Ruminations

Personal musings on Israel, Jewish matters, history and how they all affect each other


http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com.br/

Hitler's Bureaucrats: The Nazi Security Police and the Banality of Evil

For many, the name Adolf Eichmann is synonymous with the Nazi murder of six million Jews. Alongside Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, he is probably the most infamous of the Nazi murderers; unlike them, the aura linked to his name is that of the ultimate evil that may lurk in each and every one of us. (...) By taking this position, Arendt rejected the biblical story of Genesis, which sets the ability to distinguish between right and wrong at the very core of beign human. Instead, she implied that Eichmann represented a potential face of the future. This book claims that she was wrong. It describes the facts as they appear in the documentation created by Eichmann and his colleagues, and suggest that they fully understood what they were doing. (...)


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0826479189...refURL=http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com.br/

That is the study which you referenced?

If this stamp is also missing from a document you accept as genuine, why do you think its absence on the Rauff letter in any way indicates that the Rauff letter is forged?

Absence is a sign of inconsistency.

Forgery is the absence of consistency.

As I said, all the other evidence which shows just which statements Rauff made in 1945 were true, and which were less than true - documents, contemporary org charts, his own later statements, etc.

It is not such thing of "less than true". The information can only be false or true.

I already gave you one...Dr. Becker's 1960 statement, describing how he was given orders by Rauff in Rauff's capacity as head of II D, during the time you claim he was not involved with the department.

I just reviewed all posts regarding this matter and I could not find where you provided a link for the Dr. Becker 1960 statement...

Any reference to me read the statement?

I called it out as untrue the instant you tried to use it to support your false assertion that the Rauff letter was forged.

We'll just have to let the reader decide which of us has failed.

No, that is not a decision for the readers, it is for you an me.

I care less for the others readers since only you had demonstrate a substantial effort to provide reliable evidence in regard with the matters of this debate.

I think you and me did not failed if you and me had learned something from it.

Note: I am really sorry by the long wait to reply this post. As you had noticed, JREF forum users had overloaded me with questions and demands.
 
Once again, your ignorance is showing: the prisoners were not forced to kill. They were forced to clean up afterwards.

Who supposedly operated the homicidal gas chambers? Who supposedly thrown the Zyklon-B cans inside the homicidal gas chambers?

*Do* try and learn a bit about the history you're trying to re-write, hmmmn?

That aside, do you have a reason that such a picture would have been taken?

To produce evidence.

Do you have a reason that it will more compelling than the evidence that already shows how the killing process worked, and the cleaning up, and the cremation, and the grind of bones, and the disposal of what was left?

Would at least prove that prisoners were really being forced to kill each other.

I mean, you demanded a pic of an open pyre, and not only ran from it, are apparently trying to pretend that I did not -- while sneering at the death of the little girl who had never done you or the Germans any harm...

I did not demanded any picture.

I asked you how much pyres would be necessary to burn 3900 leftover human dead bodies.

Refresh your memory:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8209260&postcount=558
 
Who supposedly operated the homicidal gas chambers?
You don't already know this, and yet you're trying to "revise" history?
Who supposedly thrown the Zyklon-B cans inside the homicidal gas chambers?
No one, since nobody ever claimed this was how it happened.

Seriously -- how long are you going to expose your ignorance before it becomes embarrassing for you? Especially since you refuse to educate yourself?

Hint: That time was quite a while ago...
To produce evidence.
And the Nazis would have been interested in producing such evidence ... why, exactly?
Would at least prove that prisoners were really being forced to kill each other.
Except no one but you says they were.

So it's up to *you* to prove that.
I did not demanded any picture.
My apologies, you didn't -- *this* time.
I asked you how much pyres would be necessary to burn 3900 leftover human dead bodies.
You haven't supported "3900 leftover bodies" yet.

You use a single reference of "up to" 6k Jews as the normal death rate.

You then mindlessly parrot a snippet apparently from CODOH about the total capacity, not even looking at your own "citation" which does not have the quotes to which you repeat the attribution. You obviously don't read German, or at the least did not follow the link you got from Library Boi and company, or you would have noticed this.

You also neglect the fact that more than one body was cremated at a time.

And *then* you claim that a picture you have yet to identify was "after a bombing" (hint: I'm giving you a wee bit of an out here, if you can find it) and only showed 100 bodies.

How big were the pyres -- this would be a *big* point in making your point.

But you don't know, because no one doing anything close to actual historical research has spoon fed you the answer.

Come back and talk to me when you've gotten beyond the Khoury League.
 
Excellent observation.

Yes, that would be why I made it.


Mazal's site has a lot of good stuff on it. You should read it sometime.

I am comparing apple from tree A with apple from tree B and declaring that apple from tree A was pick from tree B.

No, you're comparing a RSHA document to a non-RSHA document, and claiming that because the RSHA document's formatting is different from the non-RSHA document's formatting, the RSHA document is a forgery.

And that's an illegitimate argument.

I agree. That would not be an logical argument since both codes do not have an similar pattern.

Yet that's exactly what you're doing here. The pattern on the Reichskommissariat Ostland document and the Orpo document tells you nothing about what a pattern on a RSHA document should look like.

I am not trying to prove how RSHA identified documents. That is not the base of my argument. I am trying to prove the header of the document 1 is missing important details compared to other documents header. That is why I had presented the documents from other offices.

No, what you're doing is still repeating what the source you cribbed Alvarez's arguments from told you. You refer to this number as a "serial number" because that's how Alvarez referred to it in his remarks about the March 26, 1942 letter - "d) The letter's serial no. '167/42g' is handwritten, not typed."

Your complete misunderstanding of what that number actually means and description of it as a "serial identification" for documents is also how I know you didn't get your list of criticisms directly from Alvarez' book, but instead from someone else who reproduced Alvarez' list (I'd bet good money on this CODOH forum thread being your actual source for your "analysis").

Because on the pages in his book right after he talks about the March 26, 1942 document, Alvarez talks about a series of letters between Pradel's referat and the Gaubschat company stretching from April 1942 all the way to September of that year and dealing with the details of the orders placed with the company for the gas vans themselves. And every single one of those documents not only bears the same code at the upper left, II D 3a (9) B. Nr. 668/42, but the letters written in the RSHA office itself also contain instructions that they be filed under 1737/41.

Because the number is not a "serial number" at all, but a reference to an internal filing location for the documents. Even in the first two RSHA-generated documents, which bear the slightly-different code II D 3a (9) B. Nr. 668/42-121, that's not a "serial number", but a reference to where a specific (and probably previous, since the correspondence says the discussions about those changes to the gas vans predates the first document) authorization was filed, since that exact number appears on both an April 27th 1942 internal document requesting that Rauff approve some changes in the gas van design, and an April 30th, 1942 letter sent from the referat to the Gaubschat company requesting those changes be made to the vehicles the company was manufacturing.

And if you actually read the NMT volume you found at Mazal, you'll see even more examples of documents written weeks or months apart yet still bearing the same filing codes in the same places.

Put plainly, if you have no understanding of what those numbers mean, how they were used, why they were used, in what circumstances they were used, and why they appear on any given document in any given location, you are completely unable to determine what counts as suspicious or anomalous about those numbers on a document.

Do you know any reference for the document? I could try to find an URL if you provide an appropriate reference.

Yad Vashem TR.10-767, I believe. Dr. Terry would know more about that than I do.

Perhaps you did not understand what I mean.

I am arguing the filling code of document 1 is out of context when compared with other documents. No other document use the filling code bellow the left header with handwriting.

And as I already told you, you're wrong about that, too, since the invitation letters to the rescheduled Wannsee Conference contain a (partially) handwritten filing number at the upper left of the document, underneath the agency title.

Hitler's Bureaucrats: The Nazi Security Police and the Banality of Evil

For many, the name Adolf Eichmann is synonymous with the Nazi murder of six million Jews. Alongside Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, he is probably the most infamous of the Nazi murderers; unlike them, the aura linked to his name is that of the ultimate evil that may lurk in each and every one of us. (...) By taking this position, Arendt rejected the biblical story of Genesis, which sets the ability to distinguish between right and wrong at the very core of beign human. Instead, she implied that Eichmann represented a potential face of the future. This book claims that she was wrong. It describes the facts as they appear in the documentation created by Eichmann and his colleagues, and suggest that they fully understood what they were doing. (...)


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0826479189...refURL=http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com.br/

That is the study which you referenced?

Yes, though that's not the only thing he wrote about the topic.

Absence is a sign of inconsistency.

Forgery is the absence of consistency.

Does this mean that since the Orpo document also has that very same "inconsistent absence", it was forged too? If so, why did you cite the formatting of a forged document to prove that another document with different formatting was forged?

If not, why does that "inconsistent absence" indicate forgery on one document, but not the other?

It is not such thing of "less than true". The information can only be false or true.

It's called a "lie by omission".

I just reviewed all posts regarding this matter and I could not find where you provided a link for the Dr. Becker 1960 statement...

It was right here.

ZSL 9 AR Z 220/59, vol. I, p. 194 ff., and you can easily read the relevant parts of what he said since it was quoted in Ernst's Klee's book The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders.
 
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Yad Vashem TR.10-767, I believe. Dr. Terry would know more about that than I do.

I presume you're taking this from Lozowick's book. Yad Vashem's archive has large numbers of microfiched/microfilmed copies from other archives; the TR code almost always indicates a German archive. I'd suggest that this is to be found in Bundesarchiv R58, the RSHA files.
 
While we're waiting for the duhniers to return, I propose the following simple game: name the worst 'revisionist' book or article it has been your misfortune to encounter.

Taking revisionism in the large sense, I would say that "Human Smoke" by Nicholson Baker is one of most wrong headed books I have read in a while. It does not deny the Holocaust,but portrays the Allies as being no better then the Axis. Only absolute Pacifists have any moral authority according to the author.
And his whole "World War 2 was a failure because if failed to save the Jews Of Euripe" is just so wrong. Sad thing is that Baker's books has become a big favorite of the deniers.
 
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