Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[LTC8K6]

It would also mean that wearing the hoodie can't be the reason Zimmerman targeted Martin, since the hood wasn't up at the beginning of the encounter.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

His father's girl friend actually. They were up visiting for the weekend.

He wasn't visiting. The affavadavit says "temporarily living" there.

There must be a difference, otherwise why would they have bothered writing it like that ?

 

[PhantomWolf]

It is also clear that GZ got out of his car and approached the person based on nothing but a suspicion while not reporting that nay criminal act was occuuring he did this on suspcion alone, which is nto an intelligent thing to do

Actually the underlined bit isn't clear at all. It's one of the things we don't know. We know that TM saw GZ just before the phone call to his gf cut off, but whether GZ approached him, or after seeing GZ, TM approached him, we don't know.

the intelligent thing to do would have been to keep TM under surveillance and wait for the Police to arrive,

The intelligent thing would have been to stay with the SUV, but from the 911 call it appears that keeping him under surveillance was GZ's plan

instead he does the stupid thing and sets up a lethal confrontation, he was the one armed with a gun remember.

Again this is assuming facts not in evidence. We don't know who initated the confrontation. GZ says that TM did, and no one else seems to have seen it.

If someone got out of a car and came at me with a gun I would have tried to defend myself too.

Pity that's not what actually happened then or it'd be pretty cut and dry.

 

[triforcharity]

Again, rarer than when it's not raining. Most people don't go out in the rain and dark unless it's something urgent and when they do they tend to wear clothing that keeps them dry, not clothing that will get soaked with a few minutes of walking, especially when it's only 11 degrees C.

Minor correction. It was never 11 deg. C. Not sure where that came from, but it's incorrect.

We also don't know exactly how bad it was raining at the time. I doubt very much, based on the historical records for the day. I would say if it was raining at all around 7pm, that it was nothing more than a drizzle.

They are found here.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

 

[TheL8Elvis]

it's established that he was using a headset at the time. Want to dial? Well, you can either hope that the voice recognition works, or else you'll need to pull the phone out.

What sort of ludicrous false dichotomy is this ? Try voice dialing. If it doesn't work, try again. The bottom line is, for whatever reason, TM chose not to call or anyone else for help.

This makes little sense. There's virtually nowhere for Martin to hide, and then jump out of, that would end with the two of them fighting where they did. Frankly, I think the girlfriend's version is more likely - Martin walked away but didn't run, Zimmerman pursued and found him, Martin sees him and becomes alarmed.

Exactly. There is nowhere for Martin to hide. So, PLEASE, tell me where do you think he went and what do you think he did after GZ told 911 he ran ?

 

[Dcdrac]

The whole case hinges exactly on the complete lack of criminal behaviour reported by GZ so messing with your waistband is now a crime?

And if GZ jumped to the conclusion that skittles was a gun then he should not have even left the car and precipated what happened and left it to the police one way or the other his actions caused this, GZ i the cause of this tragedy

 

[a_unique_person]

Perhaps I'm strange but I'm not sure what is particularly scary about a man in a truck stopped on the side of road talking on a phone, but then I'm strange and see people in concealing non-wet weather clothing walking about in the rain on dark cold nights looking at houses as suspicious when it's obviously the guys in the trucks talking on the phone who are the ones that I should be worried about.

Then that guy in the truck follows you, and you ring up your girlfriend to say you are scared because someone is following you. You try to get away, then he pursues you harder.

 

[Dcdrac]

I calll getting out of a car armed with a gun and approaching someone I have just trailed with my car intiating a confrontation, if someone ahad done that to me I would tried to defend myself too or run which depending on which account you read TM is meant to have done

The only hard fact is GZ at no point in that transcript said that any criminal activity was happening, you cannot get away from that no matter what sophistry is deployed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It is also clear that GZ got out of his car and approached the person based on nothing but a suspicion while not reporting that nay criminal act was occuuring he did this on suspcion alone, which is nto an intelligent thing to do, the intelligent thing to do would have been to keep TM under surveillance and wait for the Police to arrive, instead he does the stupid thing and sets up a lethal confrontation, he was the one armed with a gun remember.

If someone got out of a car and came at me with a gun I would have tried to defend myself too.

By doing what ? Deflecting bullets with your magic wristbands ? I would run. Just saying.

 

[a_unique_person]

By doing what ? Deflecting bullets with your magic wristbands ? I would run. Just saying.

he tried that. just made him look suspicious.

 

[LTC8K6]

I calll getting out of a car armed with a gun and approaching someone I have just trailed with my car intiating a confrontation, if someone ahd done that to me I would tried to defend myself too or run which depending on which account you read TM is meant to have done

The only hard fact is GZ at no point in that transcript said that any criminal activity was happening, you cannot get away from that no matter what sophistry is deployed.

Zimmerman could easily have said Martin was looking in a house window, or looking in a car window, or several other suspicious made up actions, if he wanted to justify pursuit of Martin.

If Zimmerman were a depraved racist looking to get Martin, he probably wouldn't have hesitated to make his phone call complaint sound better to justify the call and the "pursuit".

 

[Dcdrac]

By doing what ? Deflecting bullets with your magic wristbands ? I would run. Just saying.

Like TM more than likly end up dead but my gut feeling would be defend myself, my intelligence would say run and hope they are a rubbish shot

 

[Dcdrac]

Zimmerman could easily have said Martin was looking in a house window, or looking in a car window, or several other suspicious made up actions, if he wanted to justify pursuit of Martin.

If Zimmerman were a depraved racist looking to get Martin, he probably wouldn't have hesitated to make his phone call complaint sound better to justify the call and the "pursuit".

I know nothing about GZ's politics or prejudices, which we all have, but you still cannot get away from the fact the transcript does not mention any report of criminal behaviour or activity.

 

[LTC8K6]

I know nothing about GZ's politics or prejudices, which we all have, but you still cannot get away from the fact the transcript does not mention any report of criminal behaviour or activity.

On either party's part...

 

[PhantomWolf]

Because no eyewitness report has ever been wrong?

Never said they weren't. Personally I think that eye witness testomony is the worst type of evidence there is, but that doesn't mean we throw it out the window and ignore it when it doesn't match up with our biases.

We don't know what the witness statements actually say so that can't be taken without a large grain of salt.

Well we do know what the witness told the media he saw. Regardless of how unrelaible eye wittness testimony can be, disregarding it entirely without any reason other than it possibly being unreliable is, quite frankly, silly.

Since the SP chose to charge GZ with 2nd degree, maybe that eyewitness was mistaken. Or they witnessed 5 seconds of a fairly long fight.

Well the SP choose to use that TM's mother thinks it was him screaming on the tape, when according to information previously posted to this thread TM's Father and Brother said it wasn't and GZ's father and brother said it was him, as well as GZ claiming he was calling for help, and the main wittness saying it was the guy on the ground with the red shirt (Zimmerman). If the information reported in the thread is correct, one has to wonder where the SP is coming from.

who's to say what the real story is but you seem to cherry pick only those things that are damning to TM. We don't know what his side of the story is because he's DEAD.

Unfortunately it's the curse of standing in the middle of a partisan battle, you cop flack from both sides who believe that anyone not for them must be against them and for the other side. There seems to have been a whole turn TM into an angel of innocence who never did anything wrong and who was hunted down and slaughtered like a dog by the evil demon spawn black hating GZ thing to this case. When it's pointed out that in fact much of what people on that side believe is not factual and in fact TM did things that helped create the situation occur it's an attack on their perfect angel and you must be supporting the demon seed. In fact if people were claiming that GZ is totally innocent and that it was fact that TM attacked him and the evil thug got everything he deserved, then I'm be countering that too. My stance is that both made bad decisions, both had reasons for having suspicions of the other and either could have easily instigated the fight, but we don't actually know who did. Since we don't know who did it, pointing blame on the surviour is incorrect.

This is why certain people want to try and paint a picture of GZ racially profiling TM and then chasing him, gun in hand to the point he caught TM and started the fight, or caused an innocent TM to attack him by scaring him into it. They want to ignore the things that don't fit that narative because they don't fit their biases and counter that often looks like attacking their side when that's the only ones about.

Now admittedly there are a few other posters that seem to be in th GZ side, but I haven't read their posts yet, I've been too busy answering posts replying to me, however if I see something wrong in them when I do, I'll respond to that too.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

An empty bag with traces of marijuana. No proof it was his. Amazing to me how some of y'all are so ready to disbelieve anything that explains TM's behaviour but you believe everything GZ says about that night.

So to recap:

An empty baggie with traces of marijuana. Although unless the school tested it in a lab, it could have been 3-4 other things.

Was repeatedly tardy so he was suspended.

Sprayed some graffiti on a school building.

Some jewelry and a screwdriver were found in his locker. The screwdriver was labeled a burglary tool. Under that definition, my husband and I must be world class burglars based on the number of screwdrivers we own.

And simple household items can sometimes be drug paraphernalia. Maybe the context you intentionally ignored about the screwdriver and jewelry is important ?

Quite the little gang banger we have here. So untypical of a 17 yo in this day and age.

It's untypical in my house. My kids have never been suspended from school. They aren't repeatedly tardy. They don't deface other peoples property.

Until the tox screens for TM come back, we don't know if he had any drugs in his system. Maybe he really was just a 17 yo, on his way home from the store, taking the opportunity to talk to his GF away from his house.

Not a single one of us has a clue what happened there that night but you're all over TM like it was his fault he got shot. Maybe he was a little *******, hiding from GZ, waiting to jump him. We don't know now and we won't know until the end end May what happened.

Actually, we have lots of clues. I don't understand why people keep claiming we can know nothing about that night.

Until then, I'll give TM a pass. I'll give GZ the benefit of the doubt. Two people's lives were changed that night. TM's forever because he's dead. GZ's because he shot a teenager and I don't think that's what he meant to do when he got out of his truck that night. I don't think it's necessary to demonize either one of them.

Since forensics aren't woo, the story they tell will be the line in the sand. Something in the forensics, that we don't know about, has the answers and now we have to sit here until late May to know what those answers are.

I hate it

 

[Beerina]

I'm tellin' you guys, Amanda Knox freakin' did it!


WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!?!?!?!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

he tried that. just made him look suspicious.

He tried that and ... failed to make it home ? Why ? I keep asking that. He ran in between the buildings and then ... stopped and waited for GZ ?

 

[Dcdrac]

On either party's part...

GZ has actually killed someone all TM did was go to the shop and wear a hoodie.

GZ also had no authority to stop tm neither is he a Police officer nor did he act in any official capacity.

He has made a stupid mistake and sometimes mistakes ahve to be paid for.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The essential is, point based on the transcrpit evidence of the 911 call alone no criminal activity on the part of TM was reported by GZ all he said ws acting suspiciously whatever definition of suspiciously he was using he should have stopped there, it was he that got out of his car armed with a gun and approached someone he did not know and had not reported any criminal activity being carried out by that person.

Again you are assuming things not in evidence. We simply don't know who did the approaching.

GZ if he really had felt threatend should have driven to a safe point and provided surviellance for the police, he did not, he acted stupidly, based on thin air his own definiton of acting suspicously, remember in the transcript there is no indication of any ceiminal behaviour on the part of TM reportd by GZ, suspcion alone is not enough.

You haven't seen a map of the area have you? TM run down a path beside some houses, there was no road access to it, nowhere that GZ could have "driven to a safe point and provided surviellance for the police."

However it's not illegal to get out of the SUV, it's not illegal to follow someone. Unlike what the media appears to be reporting, the dispatcher did not tell him to not get out of the car and not follow, rather said that he didn't need GZ to follow, after he already was, though by then TM was likely already out of sight anyway. I was also unaware that there was a rule on what allowed you to follow someone, and that suspicion wasn't enough to do so.