General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Wroclaw]

It's called both sides against the middle.

Really? What about this guy?

He was in Europe — Poland specifically — in 1939. His father was killed. He was ultimately reunited with his mother in 1950, but she was the only one of his family who survived.

Could you tell me which side of "both sides against the middle" he was on?

 

[A'isha]

Surely you can provide specific cases of these events?

You know, like the best-selling book in Germany published by a leading member of the Jewish community that described how the Jewish race was being threatened by degenerate non-Jews, and that Jews had to protect themselves by rooting out and destroying the subhuman non-Jews. Wait, no, my bad, that was actually a book published by a leading Nazi describing how the pure Aryan race had to be protected from degenerate, subhuman Jews by rooting the Jews out and destroying them.

Never mind, that was a bad example. A better example would be how barely sixty years before the Nazis took power, Non-Jewish Emanciation Laws were finally passed in unified Germany, ending centuries of official state discrimination against non-Jews and granting non-Jews the citizenship and equal rights that they had been denied by Jews for so long. No, strike that, it was really Jewish Emancipation Laws which were passed in Germany and which finally allowed Jews to be citizens after centuries of official state discrimination against them by non-Jews.

Well, maybe he was talking about those laws passed by Jews forcing all non-Jews out of the German civil service. Wait, no, that was the the non-Jewish Nazis who passed laws forcing Jews out of the civil service.

Hmmm...then how about the requirement that Jews instituted that forced anyone who wanted to hold a government or professional position to prove the were of pure Jewish blood, and banning anyone who did not possess a certificate describing their proper level of Jewishness from holding said positions, totally shutting non-Jews out of those positions. No, no, sorry, it was the non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws mandating certification of Aryan blood purity, and which totally shut Jews out of government and professional positions.

Okay, but there were still those laws that Jews passed saying that non-Jews were no longer citizens and were prohibited from marrying Jews. Wait, no, that was also non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws saying that Jews were no longer citizens and could no longer marry "Aryan" Germans.

All right, how about all those laws passed by Jews prohibiting non-Jews from engaging in trade or selling goods and services, restricting their access to bank accounts, making them report all wealth over a nominal amount, and eventually confiscating all non-Jewish business and forcing the sale of all valuables and property. No, never mind, again it was the non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws against the Jews which forced all Jewish businesses and property to be handed over to non-Jewish Germans.

Still, there was that infamous "night of broken glass", where Jews prompted by the authorities and backed up by government stormtroopers vandalized the shops and other business of non-Jews all across Germany, resulting in the deaths of 91 non-Jews and the arrest and imprisonment in concentration camps of 30,000 non-Jews. What's that? It was again really non-Jewish Nazis who carried out those coordinated attacks against Jews, resulting in the deaths of 91 Jews and 30,000 more Jews being arrested and sent to concentration camps?

Well, darn. Clayton, you're just going to have to help me out here.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Ok, so you cannot produce examples of anyone, historian or not, claiming that millions of political prisoners were mass exterminated by Germans in gas chambers. Why not just say so instead of all this blethering and huffing and puffing?

In first place, I never claimed that any historian made the claim I made.

In second place, you are obviously denying to explain why my statement is false or wrong.

In third place, you could not provide one single piece of primary evidence to support the existence a mass extermination plan executed by the Third Reich.

For example, you provide a link with this picture:

http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/auschwitz_4_small.jpg

That is a picture with bodies and smoke in the background, which was shot behind a window frame.

Would you explain how this picture is a primary evidence which proves the supposedly mass extermination made by the Third Reich against a specific group of people?

Under the picture is write:

The prisoners were subject to brutality and terror in the camps. They were constantly watched over by the SS and could become the victims of punishment, torture or death for no reason. The prisoners defied the murderous system through numerous acts of self-assertion and resistance. It was important to them to document the crimes, whether this was through illegal photos, art or poetry. Prisoners risked their lives by getting news containing proof of the crimes out of the camp. There were repeated attempts by prisoners to escape the heavily-guarded and fenced-in camps. Sometimes escape was preceded by prisoner uprisings. Even if they managed to overcome the guards, the escapees needed the support of people outside the camp to go underground. Many escapees were captured and brutally murdered.

Where are the "illegal photos" obtained in the concentration camps rather than the one provided by the page?

 

[Mudcat]

That's because they view and deal with all non Jews as sub human. The rules of social and legal fairness that non Jews lived by in Germany were out the window as far as German Jews were concerned. That's why Germany wanted them out of Europe.


That's the way Jews flimflamed to virtually control Germany in the 1930s.

You're going to need evidence to back up all of these claims.

 

[SnakeTongue]

You haven't read Mein Kampf? You know nothing about Hitler? He was the main reason.

No.

Something I know.

Which evidence proves that Adolf Hitler was the main reason?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Because it's not a forgery, and you've completely and utterly failed, in just about the most miserably pathetic fashion possible, at showing otherwise.

Not a forgery?

A simple cross-reference of data:

1. The letter was supposedly made in 26 March 1942.

I was chief of this technical section from February 1940 until March 1940.

From May 1940 to May 1941 I was in the German navy. From September 1941 to May 1942 I was in Prague. I then became chief of the section again from May 1942 to June 1942.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/2348-ps.asp

Explain how could Walter Rauff produce a letter when himself claimed not be the chief of that section in 26 March 1942.

2. The author of the letter refer to the "Standortarztes" of the "K.L. Mauthausen".

The SS Standortarzt [garrison doctor], who was officially independent of the camp commandant and answerable directly to the SS Economic and Administrative Office, was responsible for hygiene and the medical aspects of the camp.

http://en.mauthausen-memorial.at/db...?cbereich=1&cthema=367&carticle=52&fromlist=1

Explain why would Walter Rauff, from the office "Organisation, Verwaltung und Recht", would deal with a subject related to the garrison doctor of the Mauthausen concentration camp, when the garrison doctor have to respond only to the "Deutsche Lebensgebiete – SD-Inland" office.

3. The author refer to Major Pradel.

(...) When this letter was received, I. referred it to a Captan Pradl for appropriate action. The letter was discussed by Captain Pradl and myself, and I believe that Pradl was instructed by me to have the technical matters, of which the letters complained, remedied. (...)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/2348-ps.asp

Explain why would Walter Rauff in his affidavit refer to Captain, but not in the letter he supposedly wrote.

 

[Clayton Moore]

As a German I am angry that you presume to speak on our behalf. We did not ask you to speak for us. We do not want to be patronized by people with a clear political agenda to whitewash the worst German government ever. You have no idea what damage the Nazis did to German culture and to the German people. And that is only the part where it concerns us Germans.

Here's a real holocaust for you.

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2012/0...-crimes-committed-on-german-soldiers-in-wwii/

The suppressed History of Crimes committed on German soldiers in WWII.

 

[SnakeTongue]

(...) But in Holocaust denial and the Truther movement... It's just unapologetic hate mongering disguised as "clearing up the facts" or "finding the truth". The fact that they are dismissing the death of millions doesn't seem to make them bat an eye.
(...)

You confuse scientific criticism with religious beliefs...

 

[SnakeTongue]

Throw me a bone here. (...)

Here, a "bone" for you:

 

[Mudcat]

Here, a "bone" for you:

Is this supposed to be someone's idea of a joke? If so I don't get it.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Is this supposed to be someone's idea of a joke? If so I don't get it.

It's called art.

Not all people get in the begin...

 

[SnakeTongue]

(...) Jewish Emancipation Laws which were passed in Germany (...)

(...) the non-Jewish Nazis who passed laws forcing Jews out of the civil service. (...)

(...) the non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws mandating certification of Aryan blood purity (...)

(...) non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws saying that Jews were no longer citizens and could no longer marry "Aryan" Germans (...)

(...) it was the non-Jewish Nazis who passed those laws against the Jews (...)

(...) really non-Jewish Nazis who carried out those coordinated attacks against Jews (...)

In your fairy tale, suddenly, all Jews belong to a specific group of innocent people, with no influence whatsoever on the German daily life during the 30's and the 40's, hiding peaceful in their homes, with no will to commit crimes or engage in political disputes.

Your fairy tale draw a land where you just spot soldiers dressing uniforms and the Jews forever marching to the death factories! All other groups of people are left behind the scene...

There are only the evil Nazis exterminators and the good Jews exterminated!

...and your list of "Wikipedia" reference... no comments.

You are revealing yourself a master of fictional deception.

 

[Spui]

No, the people awakened and ended up with the Emperor Napoleon.

See, Clayton? This is a correct answer to a question that was directed at you but that you failed to answer.

 

[Spui]

It's called both sides against the middle.

That's quite the cop-out.

 

[Clayton Moore]

In your fairy tale, suddenly, all Jews belong to a specific group of innocent people, with no influence whatsoever on the German daily life during the 30's and the 40's, hiding peaceful in their homes, with no will to commit crimes or engage in political disputes.

Your fairy tale draw a land where you just spot soldiers dressing uniforms and the Jews forever marching to the death factories! All other groups of people are left behind the scene...

There are only the evil Nazis exterminators and the good Jews exterminated!

...and your list of "Wikipedia" reference... no comments.

You are revealing yourself a master of fictional deception.

And many thousands of Jewish men served proudly and honorably in the German military.

 

[Mudcat]

And many thousands of Jewish men served proudly and honorably in the German military.

Non sequitur. This is no more relevant then saying that Black men served proudly and honorably in the Confederate army.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Non sequitur. This is no more relevant then saying that Black men served proudly and honorably in the Confederate army.

It means it wasn't as hellish at either place as it's made out to be.

 

[Spui]

It means it wasn't as hellish at either place as it's made out to be.

At least you're consistent in your rehabilitation of heinous regimes.

 

[Spui]

Many hundreds of thousands of Christians (at the very least) served proudly and honourably in the Soviet Army, so the Soviet Union can't have been such a terrible place to live in, either.

 

[LemmyCaution]

In first place, I never claimed that any historian made the claim I made.

That is why I wrote "No, you made a claim - that people have made an accusation that millions of political prisoners were murdered by the Third Reich in gas chambers." And "so you cannot produce examples of anyone, historian or not, claiming that millions of political prisoners were mass exterminated by Germans in gas chambers."

Why do you and other revisionists habitually distort what other say and write?

You can prove your point by citing examples, you know. Too hard for you?

In second place, you are obviously denying to explain why my statement is false or wrong.

Not at all. It is wrong because there are no examples of people claiming what you say they claim. For your statement to be correct, you would have to have shown us that a good number of people make such a claim. I can't find - nor can you apparently - even a single example.

In third place, you could not provide one single piece of primary evidence to support the existence a mass extermination plan executed by the Third Reich.

In the first place, I pointed you to primary source references I made throughout this thread. One such document I discussed at length was the Jaeger report, which in turn links to other documents, like Sakowicz's diary. Your deciding not to look through the thread isn't my problem, it's yours.

For example, you provide a link with this picture:

http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/auschwitz_4_small.jpg

That is a picture with bodies and smoke in the background, which was shot behind a window frame.

Would you explain how this picture is a primary evidence which proves the supposedly mass extermination made by the Third Reich against a specific group of people?

It doesn't, and I didn't claim it did. You show me where I made such a claim.

To remind you, Bob, that photo was posted in response to your post which asked a specific question, a question different to the one you are asking here and so, of course, the photo had a different purpose:

Originally Posted by SnakeTongue
Why is so difficult to find a picture or a video of German workers taking dead bodies out of a supposed gas chamber? Where is footages showing German workers carrying dead bodies to a crematorium?

I replied to this with a post in which there was a link to a photo of one stage in one of the processes by which the Germans cremated gassed Jews at Birkenau.I explained as so:

German workers didn't do these tasks, so finding a photograph or video [sic] of German workers performing these tasks would indeed be very difficult. Dealing with the corpses was a duty assigned to mostly Jewish prisoners. More to the point, what leads you to expect that mass murder would be documented in photos and videos [sic]?

There is in fact some film footage of very early shootings in Latvia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6OLu...layer_embedded), at Skede beach, and many photographs in the less controlled environment of the eastern open-air shootings exist. Members of the Birkenau Sonderkommando smuggled a camera into the camp and made some photos of bodies being cremated (scroll down in this link http://www.ghwk.de/2006-neu/room14-2.htm).

Later, I also referred you to a book of testimonies of Jewish workers who were used in this process.

I will also admit that I am having too much fun watching ANTPogo make you squirm to want to open up other lines of thought right now. See if you can deal with ANTPogo, then we can discuss the Jaeger report or other sources.

Where are the "illegal photos" obtained in the concentration camps rather than the one provided by the page?

What makes you think that the bit you quote isn't referring to the photograph I linked to?