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Merged Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal

No, I get that. What I found interesting is the implication from his line of thought, which I read as follows:

The U.S. didn't need to worry if Germany took all of Europe and most or all of Russia because even then it still would have been a practical impossibility for it to have invaded the United States. But such a view means he has no qualms at all about the vile Nazi regime conquering Europe and Russia and imposing its harsh and brutal rule on those conquered peoples. (Millions of which in western Russia would have been starved to death to make way for German settlers.)

Quite apart from any direct concerns over the potential of an invasion of the U.S. by any greater German Reich was the fact that the Nazi regime in itself was cruel and reprehensible and worth fighting on that reason alone.

Yeah, and the isolationists had to deal with the same issues. They never got a platform together that would deal with that problem. :D

One problem is that (said again) your opponents believe what they believe, not what you find it convenient for them to believe.

To help understand where SHC is coming from, you may want to examine the not insubstantial literature of isolationism and neo-isolationism. One can understand the Ron Paul campaign this way, for example, though why anyone would want to think like a Ronulan is another matter.

But, for example, one may find summarized in one slight volume (about as much as it really deserves) such points:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aF...onepage&q=No Clear and Present Danger&f=false

No Clear and Present Danger by Bruce M. Russett, for those who don't want to follow the link. A Lone Nut, doing a self-published book that sold in in the high two figures or low threes? Apparently not quite:

http://www.independent.org/aboutus/person_detail.asp?id=399

The Dean Acheson Professor of International and Area Studies at Yale, no less. Perhaps a good reason not to be an Eli.

:blackcat:
 
SpringHallConvert has been quite coy about his citizenship since joining the JREFF. I wouldn't expect much truthful elaboration on this issue.

It's not the only thing SpringHallConvert has been coy about. He is really elusive when you try to pin him down on whether he beleives the Holocaust happened or not.
 
It's not the only thing SpringHallConvert has been coy about. He is really elusive when you try to pin him down on whether he beleives the Holocaust happened or not.

He's awfully shy about revealing who really controls the US government too, although he makes free to mock anyone who thinks it's the people who were elected to the job.
 
SHC said...

...being occupied by the British Empire would probably have sucked just as much as being occupied by the Nazi Empire.

How so?
 
One problem is that (said again) your opponents believe what they believe, not what you find it convenient for them to believe.

To help understand where SHC is coming from, you may want to examine the not insubstantial literature of isolationism and neo-isolationism. One can understand the Ron Paul campaign this way, for example, though why anyone would want to think like a Ronulan is another matter.

But, for example, one may find summarized in one slight volume (about as much as it really deserves) such points:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aF...onepage&q=No Clear and Present Danger&f=false

No Clear and Present Danger by Bruce M. Russett, for those who don't want to follow the link. A Lone Nut, doing a self-published book that sold in in the high two figures or low threes? Apparently not quite:

http://www.independent.org/aboutus/person_detail.asp?id=399

The Dean Acheson Professor of International and Area Studies at Yale, no less. Perhaps a good reason not to be an Eli.

:blackcat:
I have over forty books on isolationism in my library. Two of them signed by Wayne Cole. I've done my reading.
 
You are wasting your time. That is far too complicated for SHC's simplistic view of WWII.


I'm not posting for his benefit. I'm posting for the benefit of any lurkers who may read this thread. It is to those silent observers to whom I really direct my posts, so that they may have the factually and contextually accurate information on the topics we are discussing here.
 
I'm not posting for his benefit. I'm posting for the benefit of any lurkers who may read this thread. It is to those silent observers to whom I really direct my posts, so that they may have the factually and contextually accurate information on the topics we are discussing here.

Yes, that is what threads like this are good for. The lurkers will learn nothing from the likes of SHC. The paucity of his and his ilk's ideas is breathtaking.
 
I'm not posting for his benefit. I'm posting for the benefit of any lurkers who may read this thread. It is to those silent observers to whom I really direct my posts, so that they may have the factually and contextually accurate information on the topics we are discussing here.

Yep, correct the lies and misconceptions. That's the only use for a CTer's comments, to pave the way for the real information.
 
Well-defended? Is that some sort of joke or something? If those bombing raids were so well defended, why were thousands upon thousands of German civilians being killed in single raids over one city?


The extent to how well German airspace was defended can be seen in two ways.

First, a specific number: in September of 1944 there were 10,225 heavy artillery pieces used for aerial defence of the Reich. Indeed, the need for ever more guns pointing skywards to protect against bombers meant the German army was starved of anti-tank artillery. Albert Speer himself stated that of the 19,713 dual purpose anti-tank/anti-aircraft 88mm and 128mm guns produced between 1942-44, almost 84%—16,541 guns—were assigned to aerial defence. That left only 16% to go to the army for the anti-tank role—this no doubt greatly helped the Allied ground campaigns in both the east and west since they faced far fewer anti-tank guns than they would have otherwise.

Second, general data: look at the number of Allied bombers and crews lost during the bombing campaign. As a proportion of the fighting force, the losses were huge. You don't have those types of losses against undefended airspace.


If bombing war material production facilities was the only goal, why were we also bombing civilian housing? Why were we dropping mixtures of high-explosive and incendiaries, which we knew could create uncontrolled firestorms?


The reasons should be obvious: a worker whose home has been burned down has to be found new accommodation—that requires time and effort on the part of the government. Streets and roads are blocked with debris, thus hindering general economic activity. All that damage has to be cleaned up and repaired. This siphons off economic effort that would otherwise have gone directly into war production. Granted, this is not as direct an effect as knocking out a tank factory, but the indirect effects do matter.

There is also a very practical reason for aiming at the built-up areas of a city: because that's about all that can be found and hit successfully at night. And that was the case for well into the war.

The mix of incendiary and high explosive bombs was determined by trial and error to maximize the spread of fire since fire was a very effective way to destroy buildings. And destroying buildings was the point of the exercise. Because the more that is destroyed the more that has to be repaired. And any effort spent rebuilding workers' homes, repairing broken water mains, restoring rail and tram lines, clearing the streets of rubble, etc., means effort that is not spent on war production. That matters in the long run.


Nobody is saying civilian populations could have been completely spared from the effects of war, but they certainly could have been spared from having their houses bomb.


Considering that bombing accuracy at night was measured in miles, even the best effort was going to clobber plenty of the surrounding area. A blunt tool, as I said before, but the only tool with the means to hamper German war production. Things were better in the daytime since accuracy was better—but only when the weather was good. When it was not, things were little better in terms of accuracy than they were at night. Such was the technology of the time.


None of this is an excuse for deliberately bombing women and children. Soldiers should never be directed to fight civilians. They should only be directed to fight other soldiers.


No civilians, no economy; no economy, no military; no military, no war. Feel free to cite the error in this statement as it pertains to war between industrialized nation-states. It seems you simply do not appreciate the way in which the entire national economy was directed to the war effort.
 
The extent to how well German airspace was defended can be seen in two ways.

First, a specific number: in September of 1944 there were 10,225 heavy artillery pieces used for aerial defence of the Reich. Indeed, the need for ever more guns pointing skywards to protect against bombers meant the German army was starved of anti-tank artillery. Albert Speer himself stated that of the 19,713 dual purpose anti-tank/anti-aircraft 88mm and 128mm guns produced between 1942-44, almost 84%—16,541 guns—were assigned to aerial defence. That left only 16% to go to the army for the anti-tank role—this no doubt greatly helped the Allied ground campaigns in both the east and west since they faced far fewer anti-tank guns than they would have otherwise.

Second, general data: look at the number of Allied bombers and crews lost during the bombing campaign. As a proportion of the fighting force, the losses were huge. You don't have those types of losses against undefended airspace.





The reasons should be obvious: a worker whose home has been burned down has to be found new accommodation—that requires time and effort on the part of the government. Streets and roads are blocked with debris, thus hindering general economic activity. All that damage has to be cleaned up and repaired. This siphons off economic effort that would otherwise have gone directly into war production. Granted, this is not as direct an effect as knocking out a tank factory, but the indirect effects do matter.

There is also a very practical reason for aiming at the built-up areas of a city: because that's about all that can be found and hit successfully at night. And that was the case for well into the war.

The mix of incendiary and high explosive bombs was determined by trial and error to maximize the spread of fire since fire was a very effective way to destroy buildings. And destroying buildings was the point of the exercise. Because the more that is destroyed the more that has to be repaired. And any effort spent rebuilding workers' homes, repairing broken water mains, restoring rail and tram lines, clearing the streets of rubble, etc., means effort that is not spent on war production. That matters in the long run.





Considering that bombing accuracy at night was measured in miles, even the best effort was going to clobber plenty of the surrounding area. A blunt tool, as I said before, but the only tool with the means to hamper German war production. Things were better in the daytime since accuracy was better—but only when the weather was good. When it was not, things were little better in terms of accuracy than they were at night. Such was the technology of the time.





No civilians, no economy; no economy, no military; no military, no war. Feel free to cite the error in this statement as it pertains to war between industrialized nation-states. It seems you simply do not appreciate the way in which the entire national economy was directed to the war effort.

Perhaps SHC does not have any relatives who actually fought in the war.
 
We dropped high-explosive and incendiary bombs indiscriminately on civilian populations during WW2.


On bombing accuracy:

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey estimated that bombing in daytime in clear weather, the 8th AF was able to get half the bombs dropped within one-third of a mile of the aiming point. That's not the amount actually on the aiming point, but within one-third of a mile of it. One-third of a mile—that's 587 yards, or 536 metres—over half a kilometre. The other half of bombs dropped are, of course, landing farther away than that. That's the level of accuracy when bombing visually by day in clear weather.

Bombing in daytime through heavy cloud saw accuracy plunge to half the bombs dropped landing within 3.9 miles—6.3 kilometres—of the aiming point.

The RAF measured accuracy in terms of the numbers of bombs dropped landing within 3 miles—4.8 kilometres—of the aiming point.


There was a deliberate intent to terrorize, if not outright murder...


Have you not got the memo? War is nothing but outright murder.


...defenseless women and children.


Only if by "defenseless" you meant defended by tens of thousands of anti-aircraft guns, hundreds of day and night fighters, over one hundred first-class radar stations devoted to early warning and fighter control, all the personnel needed to operate the foregoing, etc.

To give an example of the number of military personnel involved, in April of 1945 the flak arm of the Luftwaffe still totalled 656,000.
 
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As far as Britain was concerned it was a fight for national survival. Until 1941 an invasion was expected and British Forces were in action against the Axis in Africa the Far East and the Atlantic Ocean. There were bombing raids every night against both military and industrial targets. Bombing germany was the only way of striking back directly at the enemy. That later in the war the Allies could put hugely more aircraft over a target then the Germans ever could shows the folly of the Germans for starting the war in the first place.

Someone mentioned Gas. Germany never used gas in battle or in a bomb. They were told in no uncertain terms that if a gas bomb landed on British soil then Britain would retailate against Geerman Cities. Gas bobmbs were expected and all civilians as well as military were issued with Gas Masks and gas attacks were trained for. There were even masks for horses and special all encompassing shroud masks for babies. It was an offence not to carry your mask at all times.

My Uncle Martin was in the RN and was at the Battle of River Plate and also on the Malta Convoys. My Uncle Harold was in an RAF Forward Observation Unit, they called down airstrikes from Typhoons. He went over in the first wave onto Gold Beach on D-Day.
 
So I missed out on the 'action' of a couple of pages. I see SHC tried to invoked the Treaty of Versaille pity party.

No. Just....No.
 
Well-defended? Is that some sort of joke or something? If those bombing raids were so well defended, why were thousands upon thousands of German civilians being killed in single raids over one city? Why were millions of other civilians made homeless by the raids? Berlin was bombed to ashes.


Congratulations. You're now a two-ocean failure.
 
Dear,dear. Certain people really have let standards slip over there in the colonies. :D
 
I know a guy on the Isle of Skye who thinks that there is a bunch of foreigners on the mainland. :D

Have you ever heard of the 1930's headline from the London Times? ''Thick fog in the English Channel. Continent isolated.''
 

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