Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

Actually, I disagree. I don't care who initiated the violence. I care about who was armed, amd who initiated the incident. Zimmerman clearly followed Martin. I also don't care if using the gun was "justifiable" because other than under rhe truly moronic stand your ground law in Florida it just wasn't.

To reiterate. Martin did not even know of the existence of Zimmerman, and clearly wasn't following Zimmerman around.

So Martin's girlfriend was lying?

And who initiated the violence certainly does matter, it's at the heart of this case.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm with WildCat. Having done spectrometric pattern matching a few times over the years, it seems unlikely that the current state of technology can arrive at an accurate assessment under these conditions.

Speech recognition relies on acoustics unique to a person's physiology. To believe that the circumstances of the recording would not distort those signatures outside of all recognition is far-fetched.

 

[WildCat]

What do you mean try what again? What's so damn difficult to understand?

• The police release is worthless as it is self serving.
• I don't claim that the 911 operator is a police officer.
• Hell, I DON'T CLAIM ANYTHING other than your assertion is silly.

This is not in fact. A judge could very well find that the dispatcher was a representative of the police department. So, if you want to argue this you will need something other than a self serving police release and an assertion by implication that a dispatcher cannot speak on behalf of the police department. Okay?

Ah, so it's all a big conspiracy.

 

[triforcharity]

Actually, I disagree. I don't care who initiated the violence. I care about who was armed, amd who initiated the incident. Zimmerman clearly followed Martin. I also don't care if using the gun was "justifiable" because other than under rhe truly moronic stand your ground law in Florida it just wasn't.

First off, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, this case will have nothing to do with the Stand Your Ground statute that Florida has. And, quite frankly, I like the idea of not having to run away when someone is attacking me. I should be able to stand my ground, and meet force with force.

We probably disagree about the place of guns in society as well. I don't think there is any way it is ever a good thing to have crazed morons walking around the neighborhood looking to **** with people.

I agree, to a point.

1-We shouldn't be letting any crazy people have guns, period.

2-There was nothing in Florida's laws that precluded Zimmerman from having a gun, and nothing prevented him for obtaining a CWP.

 

[WildCat]

Bull. You are pulling this out of your confirmation bias rear. Some dispatch centers use very high tech equipment and any center that has been modernized uses digital recording. And, 911 calls are frequently used in court so there is a value in having quality recording equipment.

It's using digital recording where the loss comes in. For example, mp3 is a digital audio format. It's also a very lossay format by definition, no matter how high-tech the equipment that creates it.

So 'WC says so' vs a company that has been consulting on voice recognition forensics for more than a decade with dozens of published papers, and, who actually had access to the recording. I have no problem with my personal conclusion here.

Show me where any company can do this with the type of data available for this case. And explain why your own link showed that they were unable to conclude anything in 69% of the cases.

 

[triforcharity]

Gee wizz, I should contact the world's police departments. They're wasting billions employing detectives and forensic experts! The fools think sifting and collecting evidence, then applying it to find the probable guilty party is finding facts, little did they know they should be using a narrow court definition as spelled out in the dictionary.

What that means is that the police are not the ones who say if someone is in fact guilty or not. That is what the courts' job is.

The police use probable cause. Judges and juries decide fact.

That is all that means. And, he's right.

 

[WildCat]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...easonable-scientific-certainty?pagewanted=all

Well, if the guy with software to sell says so.

 

[crimresearch]

Did they actually file against Zimmerman? I am under the impression from initial media reports that SPD investigators recommended manslaughter charges which the State Attorney declined - presumably in accordance with the immunity statute.

That's what piqued my curiosity initially - why SPD did not place Zimmerman in custody under the 48-hour rule.

The police took him into custody, the homicide detective filed the charge, the prosecutor turned it down... what 48 hour rule applies after that?

 

[332nd]

Well, if the guy with software to sell says so.

Well if the guy calling it "complete woo" says so.

 

[triforcharity]

The police took him into custody, the homicide narcotics detective filed the charge, the prosecutor turned it down... what 48 hour rule applies after that?

It just makes me go....hummm......why wouldn't they call another department with an experienced homicide detective, to assist them? I mean, it's not like this case was a simple one. Why wouldn't the SPD call Seminole county and ask for a homicide detective? It would only help IMO.

Cheers!

 

[crimresearch]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...easonable-scientific-certainty?pagewanted=all

And that is where a competent defense attorney would try to get this tossed under Frye.

 

[crimresearch]

It just makes me go....hummm......why wouldn't they call another department with an experienced homicide detective, to assist them? I mean, it's not like this case was a simple one. Why wouldn't the SPD call Seminole county and ask for a homicide detective? It would only help IMO.

Cheers!

I keep seeing Chris Serino referred to as 'homicide investigator', so I stuck with that. Is that the same' narcotics investigator' interviewing witnesses at the scene, or has the media conflated cool sounding words again?

 

[WildCat]

Well if the guy calling it "complete woo" says so.

Maybe the psychics will step up and put this matter to rest once and for all!

 

[332nd]

Maybe the psychics will step up and put this matter to rest once and for all!

Why do we need them? Some guy on teh internetz says it's "complete woo"!

 

[A'isha]

Well, if the guy with software to sell says so.

I was answering Dancing David's question.

If you don't like the answer, please feel free to contact the Orlando Sentinel and explain to them that the forensic expert and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence using the exact same software that has already been used to convict murderers in court cases in the past is wrong. And don't forget the other forensic audio expert who came to the same conclusion without using the software.

I hope you have more of a reason than "because I personally don't believe it because it contradicts the opinion I've been arguing for a week in a message board thread", though.

 

[WildCat]

I was answering Dancing David's question.

If you don't like the answer, please feel free to contact the Orlando Sentinel and explain to them that the forensic expert and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence using the exact same software that has already been used to convict murderers in court cases in the past is wrong. And don't forget the other forensic audio expert who came to the same conclusion without using the software.

I hope you have more of a reason than "because I personally don't believe it because it contradicts the opinion I've been arguing for a week in a message board thread", though.

In the study posted they were unable to conclude anything 69% of the time. It made clear that high quality recordings were necessary.

We don't have anything close to a quality recording here wrt the screams.

And the world of forensics has had its share of woo that has sent people to prison, even to death. There's was quite an expose a few years ago on the shaky science of fire forensics, for example.

 

[crimresearch]

I was answering Dancing David's question.

If you don't like the answer, please feel free to contact the Orlando Sentinel and explain to them that the forensic expert and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence using the exact same software that has already been used to convict murderers in court cases in the past is wrong. And don't forget the other forensic audio expert who came to the same conclusion without using the software.

I hope you have more of a reason than "because I personally don't believe it because it contradicts the opinion I've been arguing for a week in a message board thread", though.

Were those other cases in Daubert states? Just because it isn't purely woo, doesn't mean that a Florida court has to accept something new.

 

[Cylinder]

The police took him into custody, the homicide detective filed the charge, the prosecutor turned it down... what 48 hour rule applies after that?

Florida - like many states - allow police to hold suspects for 48-hours before a probable cause hearing is required.

RULE 3.133. PRETRIAL PROBABLE CAUSE DETERMINATIONS AND ADVERSARY PRELIMINARY HEARINGS

(a) Nonadversary Probable Cause Determination.

(1) Defendant in Custody. In all cases in which the defendant is in custody, a nonadversary probable cause determination shall be held before a judge within 48 hours from the time of the defendant’s arrest; pro-vided, however, that this proceeding shall not be required when a probable cause determination has been pre-viously made by a judge and an arrest warrant issued for the specific offense for which the defendant is charged. The judge after a showing of extraordinary circumstance may continue the proceeding for not more than 24 hours beyond the 48-hour period. The judge, after a showing that an extraordinary circumstance still exists, may continue the proceeding for not more than 24 additional hours following the expiration of the initial 24-hour continuance. This determination shall be made if the necessary proof is available at the time of the first appear-ance as required under rule 3.130, but the holding of this determination at that time shall not affect the fact that it is a nonadversary proceeding.

(2) Defendant on Pretrial Release. A defendant who has been released from custody before a probable cause determination is made and who is able to establish that the pretrial release conditions are a significant restraint on his or her liberty may file a written motion for a nonadversary probable cause determination setting forth with specificity the items of significant restraint that a finding of no probable cause would eliminate. The motion shall be filed within 21 days from the date of arrest, and notice shall be given to the state. A judge who finds significant restraints on the defendant’s liberty shall make a probable cause determination within 7 days from the filing of the motion.
12.19.11 Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure Page 42 of 321

(3) Standard of Proof. Upon presentation of proof, the judge shall determine whether there is probable cause for detaining the arrested person pending further proceedings. The defendant need not be present. In de-termining probable cause to detain the defendant, the judge shall apply the standard for issuance of an arrest warrant, and the finding may be based on sworn complaint, affidavit, deposition under oath, or, if necessary, on testimony under oath properly recorded.

(4) Action on Determination. If probable cause is found, the defendant shall be held to answer the charges. If probable cause is not found or the specified time periods are not complied with, the defendant shall be released from custody unless an information or indictment has been filed, in which event the defendant shall be released on recognizance subject to the condition that he or she appear at all court proceedings or shall be released under a summons to appear before the appropriate court at a time certain. Any release occasioned by a failure to comply with the specified time periods shall be by order of the judge on a written application filed by the defendant with notice sent to the state or by a judge without a written application but with notice to the state. The judge shall order the release of the defendant after it is determined that the defendant is entitled to release and after the state has a reasonable period of time, not to exceed 24 hours, in which to establish probable cause. A release required by this rule does not void further prosecution by information or indictment but does prohibit any restraint on liberty other than appearing for trial. A finding that probable cause does or does not exist shall be made in writing, signed by the judge, and filed, together with the evidence of such probable cause, with the clerk of the court having jurisdiction of the offense for which the defendant is charged.

Of course the immunity statute strips this option for a defendant claiming justified force.

 

[tyr_13]

I saw a man interviewed on CNN last night. His position is that Zimmerman is white. Now he didn't support this the way posters here support it, saying that 'Hispanic can be white' or even arguing that he looked white. His reasoning? Zimmerman shot a black man and isn't in jail yet. That's a privileged of a white man. Therefore, Zimmerman must be white.

It was shocking how a silly argument like that was being treated like academic research. It was also surprising how little about the case the three commentators seemed to know.

 

[A'isha]

Were those other cases in Daubert states? Just because it isn't purely woo, doesn't mean that a Florida court has to accept something new.

If Zimmerman ever gets put on trial, and forensic recording analysis comes up, I have no doubt that even if it is technically admissible under Florida's rules of evidence, there's going to be a big battle over both whether it gets admitted, and whether it's actually probative.

I remember, quite vividly, what happened during the Casey Anthony trial when her computer's internet search history was brought up.