The death throes of a conspiracy theory.

[Corsair 115]

Awesome! You win the thread! Anybody that uses a Phoenix Wright reference automatically wins any thread.

What about Harvey Birdman or Phil Ken Sebben?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Awesome! You win the thread! Anybody that uses a Phoenix Wright reference automatically wins any thread.

That's great, because we already know who's lost the thread.

 

[000063]

Perhaps not. If ever there was an arguement to be made for a poster being a 'bot' SHC would be an illustration of one. He simply gainsays, or takes a contrarian position on all issues.

Unless he thinks the official story actually supports him, like Northwoods.

The weird thing is that he claimed--and refused to support, natch--that ON was credible because everyone involved was dead or retired. When I asked him if he ever thinks 9/11 will be declassified, he didn't answer.

Yet here he is, advancing a conspiracy theory about WW2.

 

[CORed]

We've more or less let this run, but the dishonesty is starting to bug me. It's ridiculous of you to use the term 'concentration camps' to equate internment camps for citizens who originate from a now-enemy nation with Nazi extermination camps.

If it was as simple as you want to paint it, a president 'morally depraved enough' to kill thousands of his own people by failing to prepare them for a coming attack would have exterminated the Japanese Americans, not imprisoned them.

There is no reasonable argument for Roosevelt deciding to do nothing to mitigate the coming Japanese attack or prepare to take advantage of it to counterattack after the event. The evidence of Roosevelts inaction makes your claim unreasonable without hard evidence. The utter lack of any scrap of evidence makes it and you preposterous.

Well you know, aside from lacking gas chambers, mass graves, starvation of the prisoners and slave labor, the internment camps for Japanese Americans were just like Hitler's.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

I have 164,000+ items on WWII online. That's how lazy I am.

I doubt it, but it's a nice thing to pound your chest about.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I doubt it, but it's a nice thing to pound your chest about.

Prove he doesn't.

 

[jaydeehess]

I doubt it, but it's a nice thing to pound your chest about.

as opposed to your chest thumping about how little you have?

 

[Mudcat]

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

If Roosevelt was morally depraved enough to cage thousands of U.S. citizens for the non-crime of simply being of Japanese descent, why wouldn't he also be morally depraved enough to have a few thousand U.S. citizens murdered so he could finally have an excuse to join a war he was dying to drag the country into?

The kind of scum who would allow concentration camps for his citizens is also the kind of scum who would allow them to be sacrificial cannon fodder, and you've got no good argument to the contrary.

None of this makes any sense at all SHC. The internment camps were not in any way, shape or forms anything like the concentration camps that the Nazi's built. This, of course, does nothing to justify imprisioning innocent Americans, but as far as I know the people were not treated the same as the concentration camp victims were. Why don't you understand this?

And second off you still haven't provided any evidence FDR had any kind of advanced warning to the Pearlharbor attacks. Now let me spell out for you to make this easy for you:

There are two ways that he might have become aware of the attacks. The first is by actionable intel reports, which would most likely have came from the Office of Naval Intelligence. If this is the case than you would have a paper trail, stamps, official recognition, affterdavids and so on and so forth to point towards the president recieving the intell, and more of the same as he met with his military aides and then gave out this stand down order of yours. Most, if not all of this, would have come to light long before you were born but has not.

The second way is if Japan made this big "We're not bluffing" declaration of intent to attack Pearlharbor. This we would have a moutainous moutain of evidence for, but don't.

So what way did he become aware of the attacks SHC?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I doubt it, but it's a nice thing to pound your chest about.

You know, all I gotta do is run a count on the inventory. Because that number was from November.

 

[Hans]

It should be noted that most European countries interned 'enemy aliens' within their borders-or expelled them, the US didn't and couldn't intern its population who had German, Italian, Roumanian, Hungarian, etc ancestors. Nor did they intern all Americans of Japanese descent. Certainly the Japanese intern most Europeans associated with the Allies.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I see that SHC hasn't been able to prove that I have not seen his mother naked. That must mean that the theory that I have seen her naked and the theory that I have not seen her naked are equally valid.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

None of this makes any sense at all SHC. The internment camps were not in any way, shape or forms anything like the concentration camps that the Nazi's built. This, of course, does nothing to justify imprisioning innocent Americans, but as far as I know the people were not treated the same as the concentration camp victims were. Why don't you understand this?

That's irrelevant. They were still concentration camps and they were still criminal.

And second off you still haven't provided any evidence FDR had any kind of advanced warning to the Pearlharbor attacks. Now let me spell out for you to make this easy for you:

There are two ways that he might have become aware of the attacks. The first is by actionable intel reports, which would most likely have came from the Office of Naval Intelligence. If this is the case than you would have a paper trail, stamps, official recognition, affterdavids and so on and so forth to point towards the president recieving the intell, and more of the same as he met with his military aides and then gave out this stand down order of yours. Most, if not all of this, would have come to light long before you were born but has not.

False. Paper trails can be destroyed, assuming that the most damning items left aren't still classified.

So what way did he become aware of the attacks SHC?

Who knows? You're speculating just like I am. We do know he was actively seeking to "provoke" and "maneuver" (McCollum memo/Stimson Diary) the Japanese into firing the first shot. This means he was at least aware that some U.S. target somewhere in the Pacific was going to be on the receiving end of that first shot. It stands to reason that it would be Pearl Harbor, since it was the largest, and most important military/naval installation in the entire Pacific. The Japanese weren't going to waste their one chance at a surprise attack on some meaningless outpost with a couple of destroyers. We knew that if they did attack, it would be in a place where they could do a maximum of damage to our ability to interdict their efforts in the Pacific.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Who knows? You're speculating just like I am. We do know he was actively seeking to "provoke" and "maneuver" (McCollum memo/Stimson Diary) the Japanese into firing the first shot. This means he was at least aware that some U.S. target somewhere in the Pacific was going to be on the receiving end of that first shot. It stands to reason that it would be Pearl Harbor, since it was the largest, and most important military/naval installation in the entire Pacific. The Japanese weren't going to waste their one chance at a surprise attack on some meaningless outpost with a couple of destroyers. We knew that if they did attack, it would be in a place where they could do a maximum of damage to our ability to interdict their efforts in the Pacific.

First, you are just quote mining. Dishonest tactic. I thought I'd be the fist to point that out to you.

Second, "stands to reason", I don't think that means what you think it means.

Third, Japan pulled off several surprise attacks, one being hours before Pearl Harbor.

Fourth, the IJA/IJN Concord has to be taken into account. You know the parts I'm talking about.

 

[jaydeehess]

Even given an expectation of an attack, the USA could not know exactly where such an attack would take place. Hawaii being halfway across the Pacific and the Japanese having shown no previous desire to go that far with a major task force, exactly how do you determine that they would know for a certainty that PH would be the site of that attack

especially given your admitted utter lack of any docs that would indicate such precise foreknowledge?

 

[ComfySlippers]

... False. Paper trails can be destroyed, assuming that the most damning items left aren't still classified...

That's the daftest thing I've heard you say.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

First, you are just quote mining. Dishonest tactic. I thought I'd be the fist to point that out to you.

What's dishonest about it? Are certain quotes inconvenient to your case? It certainly seems that way.

Second, "stands to reason", I don't think that means what you think it means.

If I am wrong, prove it.

Third, Japan pulled off several surprise attacks, one being hours before Pearl Harbor.

So not days or weeks before Pearl Harbor, which would give U.S. forces the time to prepare a proper defense, but just hours?

That doesn't really help your case very much.

Fourth, the IJA/IJN Concord has to be taken into account. You know the parts I'm talking about.

Not really.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You are utterly unprepared.

 

[Mudcat]

That's irrelevant. They were still concentration camps and they were still criminal.

It is very much relevant, they weren't concentration camps. But the fact that the camps were wrong? I agree with that.

False. Paper trails can be destroyed, assuming that the most damning items left aren't still classified.

So somone gave the order that that all records of this be destroyed is given, which would require signatures of the person giving the order, someone would have to destribute these orders, requiring signatures that these orders were received and understood, then someone would have to carry out those orders, requiring signatures for arrests made for non-compliance, papers confisticated, warnings issued not to talk to anyone anywhere ever, and someone would have to receive, cataloge, and destroy all these documents requiring more signatures affirming all that. Is that about the size of it?

Because it sounds ridiculous. Now I've noticed you introduced the existance of the Syphalis experiments and MKULTRA IV for support of your claims...

You do realise the only reason why we know of those programs and for the very same reasons that makes your claims sound stupid right? Someone within those programs broke silence and they produced evidence... from the Government!!!

Who knows? You're speculating just like I am.

I reached a conclusion based upon available evidence. It is you who is speculating.

 

[jaydeehess]

That's the daftest thing I've heard you say.

+1

He just admitted to considering that a lack of evidence is to be considered evidence of his contrarian position.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Even given an expectation of an attack, the USA could not know exactly where such an attack would take place.

False. Who knows what intelligence we had at the time? The government can say, "we only had this intelligence right here", but that don't necessarily make it true.

Hawaii being halfway across the Pacific and the Japanese having shown no previous desire to go that far with a major task force, exactly how do you determine that they would know for a certainty that PH would be the site of that attack.

For starters, they could have had convincing intel which has never been made publicly available. It could still be classified. Or maybe we might not ever find out about it. Secondly, Pearl Harbor represented the juiciest, most important target for the Japanese, since that's where the bulk of our fleet was stationed. If the Japanese only had one chance to pull off a crippling surprise attack, Pearl Harbor was the No. 1 place to do it.

especially given your admitted utter lack of any docs that would indicate such precise foreknowledge?

Naturally, the government is not going to release documentation showing that they knew the attack was coming and allowed it to occur anyway. That would represent probably the greatest government scandal in U.S. history, and even today, 70+ years later, it would cause a veritable *********.

You assume there was no foreknowledge, I assume there was. We're both working with artificially limited evidence.