Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[WildCat]

On what basis? Because you would know that? I fail to see how you can be sure of this.

And given the comment, "the always get away", it suggests Z was frustrated and might have attempted to stop T thinking he'd do that and present T to the police when they arrived.

Because in 8 years he never attempted to detain anyone he found suspicious? And would have to be brain-dead to not know that doing so is illeal?

 

[RobRoy]

In part yes. I think there are conflicting factors. I keep coming back to the idea that Zimmerman engaged. That his actions, even if innocent, were reckless and unnecassary. I think that less so since there is, I think, some conflict as to where GZ was when he heard the dispatcher say "we don't need you to do that". I thought it was before he exited the vehicle. I think I've seen conflicting timelines.

Yeah, it's all the different and conflicting information and some of it compelling and undermining other information on both sides. It's hard to grasp one narrative over another as more likely.

Agreed. I try to maintain some emotional distance (not always possible) from the face value of the events (vigilante slays innocent boy) in order to analyze and provide reasonable speculation on what actually occurred given the evidence. My initial response was highly emotional, and in part that was due to the media's portrayal of the events, and their own rush to judgment which colored some of my response. It's a hard thing to not do, but there it is.

Go back and consider the timeline, the girlfriend's testimony and the location.

The evidence does not support the scenario that T attacked Z after Z was returning to his SUV. Why would Z tell the police that if he wasn't trying to cover up the fact he knew the true scenario looked bad?

Impressive, you've completely missed the point of my post.

 

[varwoche]

I wish there was as much vigilance for pointing out all the assumptions and BS on all posts/posters, not just certain ones.

Before my snarky reply, I'd like to say many thanks for your highly informative posts.

In the future, I'll try to divvy up my 2.18 posts per day in a more fair and balanced manner.

Although there are assumptions, at least one valid questions is posed, in my opinion:

Why did it take so long to hear about the girlfriends account ? The quicker there is pressure to show Zimmerman is guilty the better from the parents perspective to get justice, yes ?

I'm not clear on a great many things, the amount of time it took to hear about the girlfriend's account amongst. In any event, I'm more interested in discussing the facts than the media meta facts, especially since my time is limited.

I wish there was a software tool at our disposal for building a group-created, multi-version timeline.

 

[Checkmite]

I still can't. This person who considers himself the neighborhood watch "captain" decides this kid is suspicious because he's wearing a hooded sweatshirt and looking around while he's walking, who clearly expresses prejudicial contempt for him on the phone at least once and possibly twice and pursues the kid on foot while armed, ends up shooting and killing the kid because the kid attacked him. It's a claim that strains credibility a little too much for me to accept uncritically.

 

[Giz]

I still can't. This person who considers himself the neighborhood watch "captain" decides this kid is suspicious because he's wearing a hooded sweatshirt and looking around while he's walking, who clearly expresses prejudicial contempt for him on the phone at least once and possibly twice and pursues the kid on foot while armed, ends up shooting and killing the kid because the kid attacked him. It's a claim that strains credibility a little too much for me to accept uncritically.

What strains credibility?

That someone who had been on neighborhood watch for 8 years without any violence probably didn't intend or expect any violence that night?

That someone in a community which had suffered numerous burglaries/thefts might express contempt for burglars and thieves and might want to keep an eye on a stranger who might have been a burglar/thief?


Yeah, absolutely incredible.

 

[Checkmite]

What strains credibility?

This person who considers himself the neighborhood watch "captain" decides this kid is suspicious because he's wearing a hooded sweatshirt and looking around while he's walking, who clearly expresses prejudicial contempt for him on the phone at least once and possibly twice and pursues the kid on foot while armed, ends up shooting and killing the kid because the kid attacked him. It's a claim that strains credibility a little too much for me to accept uncritically.

Martin is the one who's dead. I see no evidence things happened the way Zimmerman claims they did after he hung up.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Vigilante justice is bad, mmmkay?

Someone needs to expalin to these 'worse version of buttholes' how "citizen's arrest" works.

This really isn't helping an already tragic situation.

 

[RobRoy]

Vigilante justice is bad, mmmkay?

Someone needs to expalin to these 'worse version of buttholes' how "citizen's arrest" works.

This really isn't helping an already tragic situation.

Hi Howie, welcome to the party!

 

[Alt+F4]

That someone in a community which had suffered numerous burglaries/thefts might express contempt for burglars and thieves and might want to keep an eye on a stranger who might have been a burglar/thief?

I'm a 47 year old white woman. Do you GZ would have thought I was a burglar/thief?

 

[LTC8K6]

Following someone to keep tabs on them seems to me to be different from "pursuing" them.

"Pursue" implies chase and catch. No sign that Zimmerman was chasing or intended to catch, Martin.

The word is being used deliberately.

Neighborhood watch is not vigilante justice. There's still no evidence that Zimmerman was doing anything but watching Martin until the confrontation, and no evidence that he intended to do anything but watch Martin.

 

[LTC8K6]

Vigilante justice is bad, mmmkay?

Someone needs to expalin to these 'worse version of buttholes' how "citizen's arrest" works.

This really isn't helping an already tragic situation.

Hey wait a minute! I argued about citizen's arrests. I was told Florida has no such thing. So how can Zimmerman use that? (He could, actually.)

Not to mention, there's zero sign that Zimmerman had any thoughts of arresting anyone. He never mentions making an arrest to the dispatcher.

 

[LTC8K6]

Martin is the one who's dead. I see no evidence things happened the way Zimmerman claims they did after he hung up.

Yes, but the prosecutor really has to bust his story, even to charge him.

Right now, that looks unlikely. Shaky at best.

He'll be charged mind you, because the pressure is enormous to do so, and this noisy crowd has to have their way no matter what.

 

[Kestrel]

That someone in a community which had suffered numerous burglaries/thefts might express contempt for burglars and thieves and might want to keep an eye on a stranger who might have been a burglar/thief?

Zimmerman didn't see Martin commit a crime. Nor did he observe any behavior that an objective person would see as suspicious. He rationalized perfectly normal behavior as being suspect, convinced himself that Martin was a criminal, then set about to make sure that this ******* didn't get away.

 

[AlexW]

New article about the homicide dective that originally investigated things:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3III-xWqjI

As with all, take with several shakes of salt at this point.

 

[LTC8K6]

Zimmerman didn't see Martin commit a crime. Nor did he observe any behavior that an objective person would see as suspicious. He rationalized perfectly normal behavior as being suspect, convinced himself that Martin was a criminal, then set about to make sure that this ******* didn't get away.

Nor did he do anything other than watch Martin...until punched by Martin.

Oh wait, you don't like that version.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm a 47 year old white woman. Do you GZ would have thought I was a burglar/thief?

I think you accidentally a word.

Is it OK in this scenario to pretend to know what GZ was thinking ? I'm getting confused as to whose state of mind we are allowed to know and when

Seriously though:
No, I don't think GZ would have thought you were a burglar/thief.

( I think GZ was profiling if that's what you wanted to hear)

 

[LTC8K6]

New article about the homicide dective that originally investigated things:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3III-xWqjI

As with all, take with several shakes of salt at this point.

That was reported long ago. The police report recommended a manslaughter charge to the DA.

The cries of "The police didn't even investigate!" drowned it out.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Zimmerman didn't see Martin commit a crime. Nor did he observe any behavior that an objective person would see as suspicious. He rationalized perfectly normal behavior as being suspect, convinced himself that Martin was a criminal, then set about to make sure that this ******* didn't get away.

That is mostly true (ETA : in my opinion). The only thing I would change is I think he convinced himself Martin was a potential criminal.

If I agree with all this, it still doesn't prove GZ intended to do anything but follow the ******* to make sure he didn't get away.

Right ?

 

[Checkmite]

Following someone to keep tabs on them seems to me to be different from "pursuing" them.

"Pursue" implies chase and catch. No sign that Zimmerman was chasing or intended to catch, Martin.

Martin was running away. Following someone who's running away from you is "giving chase".

 

[AlexW]

That was reported long ago. The police report recommended a manslaughter charge to the DA.

The cries of "The police didn't even investigate!" drowned it out.

It was all news to me--I'd previously only read that he'd been interviewed by the narcotics officer. I also was unaware that the homicide investigator did not find GZ's story credible.