Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[AlexW]

I heard GZ's buddy interviewed on the radio an hour or so ago and he said he was not at the time of the incident acting in his capacity as Mr. Neighborhood Watch Guy, but rather was driving back from the store himself (according to friend-guy). In any event, if that's the way this all went down, then it makes some sense why GZ didn't identify himself as being part of the neighborhood watch, because he was effectively off duty.

Still, I'm with lefty-sargent--"what are you doing here" is not a good opening line when you've been following somebody in your car, and asked, "why are you following me?". Lie and say you're with the neighborhood watch at that point--give yourself some feigned official capacity if you're not looking to provoke the guy at that point.

 

[crimresearch]

I edited out the offending comments.

I stand by comment. You are simply cherry picking and taking my words out of context. I specifically included "demeanor". It wasn't in the statement with the link but I meant for demeanor to be part of that which is why I stated so. You are playing gotcha. I'm sorry you feel the need to personalize the argument. I've edited my posts because they violated forum rules.

I edited out nothing, and there are no personalized comments from me. I cherry picked nothing, I accurately quoted the part of your own link that you deny exists.

Brandishing as a crime requires *all* the elements... intent, mens rea and deliberate action, not just action and 'demeanor' as you claim. Demeanor might be part of the TOTC, but it is not what the attorney in your own link was talking about. Your legal advice ignores how the law actually works.

 

[RandFan]

I edited out nothing, and there are no personalized comments from me. I cherry picked nothing, I accurately quoted the part of your own link that you deny exists.

Brandishing as a crime requires *all* the elements... intent, mens rea and action, not just action and 'demeanor' as you claim. Demeanor might be part of the TOTC, but it is not what the attorney in your own link was talking about. Your legal advice ignores how the law actually works.

• I made a statement that was sincere in intent.
• Demeanor would include "threatening manner".

I stand by my statement. I'll let others decide if my intent was dishonest.

 

[leftysergeant]

This was in the beginning of the call, before Martin ran and Zimmerman got out of the car. This part has nothing to do with SYG.

He knew that Martin had made him and felt threatened by him. Nobody withan IQ over 70 would expect Martin not to feel even more threatened by a fat whackadoodle following him on foot between rows of houses than by one staying in his vehicle.

Z acted in a threatening manner from jump street. The wrong person died on that walk way.

 

[crimresearch]

• I made a statement that was sincere in intent.
• Demeanor would include "threatening manner".

I stand by my statement. I'll let others decide if my intent was dishonest.

You can stand by your comment, you can stand by your claim that I'm the one making it personal, that I'm emotional, etc. all you want, the law is explicit that you are wrong.
Those 2 things by themselves are not suffcient. And demeanor does not mean what you think under the law.

If you are so interested in 'contributing to the dialectic', how about trying the part where you learn what you are missing?

ETA: Oh, never mind, I see that you've declared above that you won't engage in discourse.

 

[Dancing David]

It is an actual holster, and I don't see the shock value that someone would choose one, they are pretty popular.

If he had a waistband holster , yes.

I read it as 'stuffed in waist band'.

 

[sgtbaker]

He knew that Martin had made him and felt threatened by him. Nobody withan IQ over 70 would expect Martin not to feel even more threatened by a fat whackadoodle following him on foot between rows of houses than by one staying in his vehicle.

Z acted in a threatening manner from jump street. The wrong person died on that walk way.

You keep repeating that but ignore the requests for evidence of how you know all this.

 

[crimresearch]

If he had a waistband holster , yes.

Errrr.... you didn't think he had a loaded gun just stuffed in his pants did you?

ETA: Oh... I see that you've added that you did think so, sorry for the confusion.

I would assume that a self appointed 'captain' would have 'tactical' gear out the wazoo.

 

[Kestrel]

If Z considered "staring" at him threatening, he knew that getting out of his vehicle would have to look like a challenge. Since he had no right to challenge Martin, he may have already been in violation of the law. He was clearly harrassing Martin.

Martin had good reason to be staring. Some guy in a pickup truck was following his every move. That kind of thing would give any of us the creeps.

So Martin decided to run, just in case this guy decided to do something. Putting distance between yourself and a creepy guy is entirely rational. Zimmerman getting out of his pickup and running after Martin made it clear that he wasn't just creepy, he was a threat.

 

[Dancing David]

I know, but AvalonXQ is adamant that this is how it is. Attack someone, they fight back, you can shoot them dead. According to him.

Not really, many people get sent to prison for all sorts of violence. Self defense has a bar, not a real high bar, but a bar none the less.

 

[RandFan]

I heard GZ's buddy interviewed on the radio an hour or so ago and he said he was not at the time of the incident acting in his capacity as Mr. Neighborhood Watch Guy, but rather was driving back from the store himself (according to friend-guy). In any event, if that's the way this all went down, then it makes some sense why GZ didn't identify himself as being part of the neighborhood watch, because he was effectively off duty.

Hmmmm. Interesting. Not sure I buy it. I mean, I'm not sure that when a person is "off the clock" that they don't believe that they are acting as Mr. Neighborhood Watch Guy. Could be.

Still, I'm with lefty-sargent--"what are you doing here" is not a good opening line when you've been following somebody in your car, and asked, "why are you following me?". Lie and say you're with the neighborhood watch at that point--give yourself some feigned official capacity if you're not looking to provoke the guy at that point.

Agreed.

 

[leftysergeant]

If he had a waistband holster , yes.

I read it as 'stuffed in waist band'.

If it was just stuck in his waist band, I would say that Z is in deep doo-doo.

One would assume that a police wannabe would actually own a holster for his ccw. If he took his ccw piece with him on an errand, it would be in that holster.

If it was just in the glove compartment, he would not have a holster.

This tells me he grabbed it and stuck it in his waistband when he dismounted.

He was looking for trouble.

 

[RandFan]

Martin had good reason to be staring. Some guy in a pickup truck was following his every move. That kind of thing would give any of us the creeps.

So Martin decided to run, just in case this guy decided to do something. Putting distance between yourself and a creepy guy is entirely rational. Zimmerman getting out of his pickup and running after Martin made it clear that he wasn't just creepy, he was a threat.

Yeah, this is a sticking point for me. GZ clearly was interested in Martin. The confrontation seems to start there. Is there any evidence that GZ had a basis to be suspicious? I don't think the tapes make that clear.

 

[sgtbaker]

Martin had good reason to be staring. Some guy in a pickup truck was following his every move. That kind of thing would give any of us the creeps.

So Martin decided to run, just in case this guy decided to do something. Putting distance between yourself and a creepy guy is entirely rational. Zimmerman getting out of his pickup and running after Martin made it clear that he wasn't just creepy, he was a threat.

Well what's so threatening about ending the pursuit and heading back to the car? I mean, considering the only version of events available from any of the witnesses and/or participants to the case stated that this is how it happened, I was just curious if you got your version from a cited source or your imagination.

 

[Dancing David]

Errrr.... you didn't think he had a loaded gun just stuffed in his pants did you?

ETA: Oh... I see that you've added that you did think so, sorry for the confusion.

I would assume that a self appointed 'captain' would have 'tactical' gear out the wazoo.

One would hope, but you never know. Again I read it one way and there is now an other option.

I would have thought of just saying 'he had his weapon holstered' rather than 'in his waistband' but it doesn't have the media punch.

 

[RandFan]

Well what's so threatening about ending the pursuit and heading back to the car? I mean, considering the only version of events available from any of the witnesses and/or participants to the case stated that this is how it happened, I was just curious if you got your version from a cited source or your imagination.

I missed it, who said that Martin was heading back to the truck?

 

[WildCat]

I can't find any fault with this reasoning. It is acutely possible that there isn't enough evidence to convict. But I think it's not impossible that there is, and I favor a trial.

If any good can come of this, it's that it is highly unlikely Zimmerman will be welcome to help "protect" any of his future neighbors and neighborhoods. While this does mean that open garage doors and 9-year-old black boys walking by themselves will go tragically unreported, I believe it is ultimately for the best.

I'm pretty sure that if exonerated he'll be free to report anything he wants to police. What are they going to do, block his number from 911?

 

[sgtbaker]

I missed it, who said that Martin was heading back to the truck?

I missed it, who said Martin was heading back to the truck?

 

[leftysergeant]

You keep repeating that but ignore the requests for evidence of how you know all this.

Z's own words. He was following Martin for no good reason and doing absolutely everything that would make anyone with an IQ over 70 feel threatened.

He clearly caused the confrontation.

 

[sgtbaker]

Z's own words. He was following Martin for no good reason and doing absolutely everything that would make anyone with an IQ over 70 feel threatened.

He clearly caused the confrontation.

Cherrypick much? By his own words he also said he ended the pursuit and was heading back to the truck when Martin confronted him.