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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Has Mr. Prey offered that third pic somewhere as proof of Oswald photo fakery? Oh, my.

In the Oswald photo he is resting the butt of the rifle on his hip, and the natural, apparent relaxed curvature of his arm angles the stock forward, relative to his perspective.

The photo of the masked man shows the base of the pole held forward - again, by a relatively similar natural arm curvature - with the left hand pushing the shaft towards the right bicep.

The shadows don't come close to matching because they can't.
 
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Has Mr. Prey offered that third pic somewhere as proof of Oswald photo fakery? Oh, my.


Yes, he has. He has proclaimed that because his proferred photo doesn't replicate the Oswald shadow, the Oswald shadow is thereby exposed as fake, and the photo is therefore fake:


Oh, ye of little faith. This is so ridiculous, but nonetheless in the interest of science and especially FRAUD detection, here is what the shadow refraction is supposed to look like, un-tainted, forged, or slight of handed:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_526994ee3fd91a4e53.jpg[/qimg]


Hank
 
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It's your own boring mantra. The physical evidence is worm food. The autopsy pics are declared fake by those who took the originals. So where is your "physical" evidence?????

The available physical evidence has been listed. But I'm not the one making the assertion. So I don't have the burden of proof.

Robert, you complain about others having mantras, but you are the one who keeps repeating this all the time.
 
The statement of a witness by itself is evidence.

Another mantra. Robert you may believe that, but as has been pointed out before, if you are citing evidence here, on a critical thinkers forum, to convince us, then you should beaware that there are conventions we tend to follow. Like not considering witness statements as evidence unless validated by physical evidence. You may be bored of hearing it, but is there any point to trying to argue us down to lower standards?
 
You really don't get it? Your are the potential book burner, Mr. Hank. And that would include all those books which contain evidence of conspiracy which you don't agree with including the Warren Report and the House Report. It is you who would prefer to only deal with the brainwash you've been fed for 50 years. But when you denigrate alleged "conspiracy books" you denigrate your own primary sources -- the Warren Report and the House Report. Why don't you stick to the evaluating the evidence rather than attacking the messenger whether in the form of a person or a book or a Report?????

Nobody else has implied any attention of burning books.

Conspiracy books are discussed in negative terms when they offer speculation and flawed "evidence". That the discussion also explains on what grounds the "evidence" is flawed, such as misunderstanding photography, not supporting claims with physical evidence, etc, underminds your claim.

The WC is put under the same scrutiny and withstands it.

Let's just remember YOU posted a picture of an author of a book you didn't like in a bin, and YOU suggest. "The Bug Man" was mentally ill. (Or is it OK when you dismiss "messengers" out of hand?) Oh and you dismiss the WC as brainwash, a fraud, a whitewash, etc. Should we assume,by the standard you just described YOU are a potential book burner?
 
Hmmm.
I don't think it was the diagramme which triggered Robert Pre's wrath here-
Hank wrote:

"Aside to Robert: You really have to stop parroting stuff from conspiracy books. They are lying to you."

Perhaps you would like to sponsor a conspiracy book burning party where you could finally never again have to deal with all the stuff you disagree with. Perhaps at that book burning would have to include sources such as "The Warren Report" and its supporting volumes where many of the sworn statements of the medical personnel describing a large blow-out wound in the back of the head are sourced. Perhaps you would also like to burn other "conspiracy" sources, such as the final report of the HSCA which concluded that the President was assassinated as the result of a Conspiracy. Perhaps then, and only then you could finally take your own head from out of the sand and be free of any arguments that conflict with your own 50 years of brainwash.

I think it was saying that conspiracy books lie.
I've seen this same reaction from a colleague of mine who buys into the chemtrails, etc conspiracy.
 
Because you have yet to substantiate your assertions that any of the evidence scrutinised thus far to have been forged, altered or planted.

Only the fake prints on the rifle, the planted rifle sales receipt, the fake palm print, all of the fake autopsy photos declared fake by those who took and developed them, the altered x-rays, etc.,etc.,
 
Nobody else has implied any attention of burning books.

Conspiracy books are discussed in negative terms when they offer speculation and flawed "evidence". That the discussion also explains on what grounds the "evidence" is flawed, such as misunderstanding photography, not supporting claims with physical evidence, etc, underminds your claim.

The WC is put under the same scrutiny and withstands it.

Let's just remember YOU posted a picture of an author of a book you didn't like in a bin, and YOU suggest. "The Bug Man" was mentally ill. (Or is it OK when you dismiss "messengers" out of hand?) Oh and you dismiss the WC as brainwash, a fraud, a whitewash, etc. Should we assume,by the standard you just described YOU are a potential book burner?

The WR contains doctor's quotes which point to conspiracy. The HSCA which you guys like to point to as having an "expert" panel of photo experts, also commissioned the acoustic "experts' which concluded a conspiracy. So if you and Hank are going to generically denigrate what you call 'conspiracy" books, you denigrate your own primary sources for your own Lone Nutter fairy tales.
 
Only the fake prints on the rifle, the planted rifle sales receipt, the fake palm print, all of the fake autopsy photos declared fake by those who took and developed them, the altered x-rays, etc.,etc.,

Do you have some evidence to back your opinion?
 
The available physical evidence has been listed. But I'm not the one making the assertion. So I don't have the burden of proof.

Robert, you complain about others having mantras, but you are the one who keeps repeating this all the time.


Oh, but you have made a whole bunch of assertions, virtually none of them backed by authentic physical evidence. You don't even have any evidence that LhO was even on the 6th floor when that shots were fired, nor do you have any evidence that Oswald even fired a rifle.
 
You've now seen replications or explanations for four different claims of alteration right here on this forum, in this thread, in the last two or three days. One of them provided by the HSCA, and three others by members of this board.

The square vs rounded chin - explained.
The rifle shadow is horizontal issue - replicated.
The Oswald height varies issue - explained and illustrated.
The Oswald nose shadow issue - replicated.

What is the next issue you will need explained to you?

Hank

None of the first three have been replicated. AS for the nose shadow, as I have previously stated, I do not subscribe to all of White's claims and that is one of them. The nose shadow is just too short to make any claims pro or con.
 
Because physical evidence is objective and eyewitness evidence is subjective, we can measure claims about physical evidence and in the case of the ones you made dismiss them as baseless. The only way a recollection can be evaluated is by comparing it to physical evidence, where there is a discrepancy it is reasonable to assume that the recollection is flawed however credible or compelling the witnesses might seem.
Again if you want convince people you need to accept such well established principals and build your case accordingly. If you can't do so then you are just going to continue failing to sway anyone here.

So forged, planted, altered evidence trumps 40 plus witnesses all claiming to the same observations, eh??? Excellent reasoning.
 
lol. You are assuming what you need to prove, Robert -- that there was forged, altered, and planted evidence.

Merely contrasting eyewitness accounts with physical evidence doesn't give you the right to throw out the physical evidence. It does establish the eyewitness(es) to be wrong.

Hank

Does it give the creators and developers of the autopsy photos the right to declare them to be fake?????
 
Why don't you compare that principle to forged, altered or planted physical evidence?????
Not really, eyewitnesses in general have been proven over the years to be highly unreliable; they misinterpret or misremember events, they simply fail to take in details or their stories are influenced by discussing the event with others or badly conducted interviews, and that's of course excluding those occasions where there is deliberate deception. An eyewitness account may be a starting point to look for evidence but by itself its just a story.

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Forty plus medical eyewitnesses observing the head wounds of the President of the United States have never, in general, over the years, been shown to be unreliable.
 
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Forty plus medical eyewitnesses observing the head wounds of the President of the United States have never, in general, over the years, been shown to be unreliable.
They have in this thread, and by you on several occasions ;)
 
The WR contains doctor's quotes which point to conspiracy. The HSCA which you guys like to point to as having an "expert" panel of photo experts, also commissioned the acoustic "experts' which concluded a conspiracy. So if you and Hank are going to generically denigrate what you call 'conspiracy" books, you denigrate your own primary sources for your own Lone Nutter fairy tales.

The null hypothosis is not an assertion.
The burden of proof is on your shoulders.
 
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/novadocs.htm

Were the doctors lying here, Robert?

The four selected doctors claim what they saw of the autopsy photos on the Nova program was consistent with what they saw at Parkland. So what did they say they observed at Parkland???

MARION THOMAS JENKINS, MD
: In a contemporaneous note dated 11-22-63, Jenkins described "a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital) (sic), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound." (WC--Exhibit #392) To the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter Dr. Jenkins said, "Part of the brain was herniated. I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound..." (WC--V6:48) Jenkins told Specter that the temporal and occipital wound was a wound of exit, "...the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit..." (WC--V6:51.)

PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician at Parkland described the head wound to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter under oath as, "...I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect." (WC-V6:71)

When shown enlarged Zapruder film frames depicting a right-anterior wound, Peters wrote, "The wound which you marked...I never saw and I don't think there was such a wound. I think that was simply an artifact of copying Zapruder's movie... The only wound I saw on President Kennedy's head was in the occipitoparietal area on the right side." (Personal letter to Wallace Milam 4-14-80, copy, courtesy of Wallace Milam to author Aguilar; also in Lifton, BE: 557)

When shown by author Livingstone the HSCA's Dox drawings of the rear of JFK's skull prepared to precisely replicate the photographs, Peters claimed, "Well, this is an artist's drawing, and I don't think that it's consistent with what I saw...

ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD: In testimony at Parkland taken before Arlen Specter on 3-21-64, McClelland described the head wound as, "...I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered...so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out...." (WC--V6:33) Later he said, "...unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts (to save Kennedy's life) were of no avail." (Emphasis added throughout) (WC--V6:34) McClelland made clear that he thought the rear wound in the skull was an exit wound (WC-V6:35,37). McClelland ascribed the cause of death to, "...massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss." (WC--V6:34)

“Nova”, 11/15/88 (see still photo in “Killing The Truth”)---before AND after
viewing the official photos, McClelland places his hand on the right rear area
of his head where he saw the wound on JFK and “speculates” that a large
flap of skin is obscuring the large wound in the official photos


A)“Conspiracy” by Anthony Summers (paperback, 1989), pp. 484-486
(interviewed McClelland in 1989)---“I don’t think they were trying to cover up
the fact that there was a large hole…but that’s what they were doing…they
were covering up that great defect in the back and lateral part of the head by pulling that loose scalp flap up.
You can see the hand pulling the scalp forward [in the autopsy photo; this is what McClelland said, more or less, on
“Nova”]”; “Dr. McClelland says the ‘great defect in the back’ IS visible on
some photographs amongst the FULL set of some fifty pictures he saw at the
National Archives”; B) 8/29/89 letter to Joanne Braun (“The Third Decade”,
March 1991)---sees nothing to be concerned about re: the incision(s) that
appear in the official autopsy photos;
q) “Inside Edition”, June 1989---McClelland “says the x-rays do not show the
same injuries to the President’s head that he saw in the emergency room…I
think he was shot from the front…” [see “Conspiracy”, pp. 485-486];

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part1.pdf

RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident at Parkland Hospital on the day of the assassination. He appeared before the Commission and claimed only, "...he had a large head wound---that was the first thing I noticed." Arlen Specter did not ask him to elaborate and Dulaney did not volunteer any additional details.(WC-V:114).

So what photos were shown? We don't really know because the public was not allowed to see them even on the Nova show. But the denials of those who actually took the alleged original autopsy photos and developed them must be weighed as evidence as well:

* Floyd Riebe, one of the two autopsy photographers, has stated that did NOT take ANY of the photos in evidence. The other photographer, James Stringer, stated in a taped interview that he did NOT take the photos of the back of the head, which show that area intact, contrary to the testimony of literally dozens of credible witnesses. Who, then, took the back-of-the-head pictures?


A sworn interview with Saundra Kay Spencer, who developed the JFK autopsy photos, in which she declared that the photos in the Archives are not the ones she developed. Autopsy photographer John Stringer similarly disavowed the supplemental autopsy brain photographs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/JFK_Assassination
 
Does it give the creators and developers of the autopsy photos the right to declare them to be fake?????

The qotes you posted were of staff saying those were not the photos they remembered taking. They also stated the photos were with out a doubt of JFK.

People can misremember, which is why priority is given to physical evidence of known providence.

No number of question marks on a sentence will move other posters from the critical methodology.
 
So forged, planted, altered evidence trumps 40 plus witnesses all claiming to the same observations, eh??? Excellent reasoning.

Your claims that evidence has been planted, altered, forged, etc have not been validated. Therefore the physical evidence still stands, and still invalidates any witness statement.
 
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