Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[TheL8Elvis]

Um, I thought he did give a street address, but that the specific address was redacted from the audio.

He says at the beginning "retreat view circle, the best address I can give you..." then clearly there is something missing, I assumed he was giving a specific address.

He did, right at the beginning.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

Then later:

Zimmerman:When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. **** he's running.

He clearly seems more worried about keeping track of TM than the phone call...

 

[WildCat]

He's clearly describing how to get onto Twin Trees Lane, but never actually uses the street name. Even if he couldn't give an exact number, not saying, "it's on Twin Trees Lane," seems an astounding omission for someone who lives only one street away.

So you doubt he lived one street away?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Another witness has talked to the cops, looks like self defense:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

Same guy in the video interview we have linked to numerous times already.

ETA: Don't worry, Skeptic Ginger has already declared him to be unreliable and mistaken about what he saw.

original post from sgtbaker last Thursday:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8132856#post8132856

 

[johnny karate]

We have a witness interview and a 911 call that say GZ was yelling for help and TM was on top of him.

I don't see how that does anything but add to his claim of self defense.

That he might have lost a fight to Martin doesn't mean he was acting in self-defense. It tells us nothing about who was the instigator.

If I go up and punch a guy, and then he proceeds to kick my ass, and then I shoot him, am I acting in self-defense?

If he received a broken nose at the time as well, so does that.

From what I can tell, he claims to have received a broken nose. I haven't seen any medical records.

And again, that Zimmerman might have lost a fight to Martin doesn't automatically make him an innocent victim.

 

[WildCat]

ETA: Don't worry, Skeptic Ginger has already declared him to be unreliable and mistaken about what he saw.

While Cutcher, who didn't actually see the altercation and only heard it and gave a different story to the news media than she gave to the police, is totally reliable.

 

[Unabogie]

Another witness has talked to the cops, looks like self defense:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

That's just the same guy as before. We've already discussed this witness. "John" didn't see the shooting, he only saw two people tussling, with Zimmerman on the bottom.

 

[WildCat]

That's just the same guy as before. We've already discussed this witness. "John" didn't see the shooting, he only saw two people tussling, with Zimmerman on the bottom.

And he saw Zimmerman screaming for help.

 

[crimresearch]

OK, so it looks like self defense. Is it actually self defense?

 

[Information Analyst]

Um, I thought he did give a street address, but that the specific address was redacted from the audio.

He says at the beginning "retreat view circle, the best address I can give you..." then clearly there is something missing, I assumed he was giving a specific address.

In this version within the first 15 seconds he give a number on Retreat View Circle, which he later confirms is the Clubhouse. The problem there is that that's probably more than 100 metres from where he actually is.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That he might have lost a fight to Martin doesn't mean he was acting in self-defense. It tells us nothing about who was the instigator.

If I go up and punch a guy, and then he proceeds to kick my ass, and then I shoot him, am I acting in self-defense? .

No, that's correct. I think the legal part of self defense implies you didn't instigate it (on some level) - but I can't speak to the legalities of it.

From what I can tell, he claims to have received a broken nose. I haven't seen any medical records.

Have you seen TM death certificate ? Do you require medical records for that as well ? Or are there different standards, depending on which side you are rooting for ?

And again, that Zimmerman might have lost a fight to Martin doesn't automatically make him an innocent victim.

That's true. But I never claimed he was an innocent, or that he was not the instigator. So please, no straw men. I just stated that reports of him being assaulted and NO WITNESSES that he assaulted TM would help his self defense claim. Do you disagree ?

 

[johnny karate]

What about a guy with a CCL who notices a suspiciopus person while he's legally carrying? Does the fact that he's carrying limit his options?

Again, I have no quarrel with someone in possession of a legal firearm who observes suspicious activity and acts accordingly. But the question remains whether that was in fact what Zimmerman was actually doing.

And your evidence that Zimmerman intended to "do justice" is...?

When he got out out his car to follow Martin - against the polices of his neighborhood watch and the suggestion of the police dispatcher - do you suppose he was just running another errand?

Do vigilantes call police?

Is there something in the definition that says they can't? Batman works with the police all the time.

 

[Information Analyst]

Another witness has talked to the cops, looks like self defense:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Well, no, because while the report claims the witness "saw it all," he clearly didn't. Someone who "saw it all" would be able to saw who approached who, who said what, etc. Every witness we have heard from so far only saw what happened after *someone* started screaming for help.

 

[WildCat]

OK, so it looks like self defense. Is it actually self defense?

We don't have nearly enough information at this point to determine that.

 

[Unabogie]

And he saw Zimmerman screaming for help.

Which may be true. Zimmerman may have been losing a fight with Martin at some point. But this witness went into his home and didn't see the shooting. Cutcher seems to have seen them after this person, and she says they stopped fighting.

So, can't they both be correct? Or, isn't it possible that two people can see the same event and come away with a different perception? The black woman sees the black teen as the victim, while a white male sees the white male this way? Neither can process the alternate scenario?

Or they can be two different events. One tussle in back of John's house, another in back of Cutcher's which is where Zimmerman shoots the teen.

 

[johnny karate]

Have you seen TM death certificate ? Do you require medical records for that as well ? Or are there different standards, depending on which side you are rooting for ?

Your question seems to imply Martin is not really dead. Besides which, we have independent confirmation that he is dead and that Zimmerman shot him.

The only evidence I've seen of Zimmerman's injuries are his lawyer's claim that he was injured. It's not a matter of "rooting" for a side, but rather one of ascertaining the truth. And you'll forgive me if I don't find a self-serving and unsubstantiated claim particularly convincing.

That's true. But I never claimed he was an innocent, or that he was not the instigator. So please, no straw men. I just stated that reports of him being assaulted and NO WITNESSES that he assaulted TM would help his self defense claim. Do you disagree ?

Yes. Because first of all, Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. That qualifies as assault in my book. Secondly, that two people were in fight tells us nothing about who instigated it, and whether or not one of them can justifiably claim self-defense. We need to know how the fight started to ascertain that.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Which may be true. Zimmerman may have been losing a fight with Martin at some point. But this witness went into his home and didn't see the shooting. Cutcher seems to have seen them after this person, and she says they stopped fighting.

So, can't they both be correct? .

She saw them AFTER the gunshot. Of course they stopped fighting, TM was dead.

<SPECULATION> GZ shot him while TM was on top of him, and then pushed TM off him by rolling over, and thats how cutcher saw him 'straddling' TM, if that's indeed what she told the police. Her testimony is shaky, in my opinion.
</SPECULATION>

Or, isn't it possible that two people can see the same event and come away with a different perception? The black woman sees the black teen as the victim, while a white male sees the white male this way? Neither can process the alternate scenario?

Or they can be two different events. One tussle in back of John's house, another in back of Cutcher's which is where Zimmerman shoots the teen.

I don't think the timeline allows for multiple tussles.

 

[WildCat]

Again, I have no quarrel with someone in possession of a legal firearm who observes suspicious activity and acts accordingly. But the question remains whether that was in fact what Zimmerman was actually doing.

What if he was looking for suspicious people to report to police?

When he got out out his car to follow Martin - against the polices of his neighborhood watch and the suggestion of the police dispatcher - do you suppose he was just running another errand?

No, he was trying to keep a suspicious person in sight so the police could stop him.

Is there something in the definition that says they can't? Batman works with the police all the time.

Why yes, did you see the word "justice" there? That goes way beyond just reporting a person to police. It even goes beyond detaining a person for police (of which there is no evidence that was his intent). A vigilante also metes out punishment.

Unless in your world "doing justice" means reporting suspicious persons to police? In which case anyone who calls the police to report a crime or a suspicious person is a vigilante.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Your question seems to imply Martin is not really dead. Besides which, we have independent confirmation that he is dead and that Zimmerman shot him.

The only evidence I've seen of Zimmerman's injuries are his lawyer's claim that he was injured. It's not a matter of "rooting" for a side, but rather one of ascertaining the truth. And you'll forgive me if I don't find a self-serving and unsubstantiated claim particularly convincing.

If the attorney goes on national tv and claims a broken nose for his client in this case, I assume he'll have evidence to back it up. It seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

Yes. Because first of all, Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. That qualifies as assault in my book. Secondly, that two people were in fight tells us nothing about who instigated it, and whether or not one of them can justifiably claim self-defense. We need to know how the fight started to ascertain that.

I don't know if we are ever going to know that. I guess we'll have to wait and see what information comes to light.

 

[WildCat]

Well, no, because while the report claims the witness "saw it all," he clearly didn't. Someone who "saw it all" would be able to saw who approached who, who said what, etc. Every witness we have heard from so far only saw what happened after *someone* started screaming for help.

No, "John" actually saw Zimmerman screaming for help.

 

[Dancing David]

While Cutcher, who didn't actually see the altercation and only heard it and gave a different story to the news media than she gave to the police, is totally reliable.

Not by me, I stated early on her testimony will be tricky at best and likely to have some fierce redirect.