Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Bikewer]

Regarding handguns:

Most modern semi-auto pistols are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. In fact, carrying the weapon for defensive purposes without "one in the tube" is a seriously bad idea.
It requires two hands to ready the pistol for firing, and no one guarantees that you will have two hands available. If combat starts with you taking a bullet in the arm, or being grabbed, you have at best a club.
There are several different systems; the popular Glock "safe action" trigger and it's copies, the "double-action" trigger systems, and the single-action systems with a manual safety.
All work effectively, and should be coupled with a quality and well-desIgned holster.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The link you did post features 2 lawyers who apparently have the extraordinary ability to determine the age of a person by hearing screams on a crappy recording. And is written by a person who thinks "homicide" and "self defense" are mutually exclusive terms. It's still a homicide even if it was justified by self defense.

eta: the Boston Herald story makes no sense, an autoloading weapon with a round in the chamber and a full magazine will load a round from the magazine once fired. It's impossible to fire it and still have a full magazine.

I was linking to the gun evidence. It's the mother's testimony that supports the call for help being her son's.

Re the magazine being full vs confusing that with the number of bullets left, it would be a common reporter mistake.

I once had the mother of an infant in a hospital room with other babies in the room. She lay on a sofa with her eyes closed through a lot of crying but the minute her own child cried she jumped up every time. A lot of mothers would be able to recognize their own child's cries for help. It's very credible to me. I certainly know my son's voice.

 

[ravdin]

Regarding handguns:

Most modern semi-auto pistols are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. In fact, carrying the weapon for defensive purposes without "one in the tube" is a seriously bad idea.
It requires two hands to ready the pistol for firing, and no one guarantees that you will have two hands available. If combat starts with you taking a bullet in the arm, or being grabbed, you have at best a club.
There are several different systems; the popular Glock "safe action" trigger and it's copies, the "double-action" trigger systems, and the single-action systems with a manual safety.
All work effectively, and should be coupled with a quality and well-desIgned holster.

OK, fair enough and very sensible if you're a police officer, or otherwise need a sidearm to do your job. But if you're an armed citizen on neighborhood watch, it suggests to me that you're looking for trouble.

I find it very difficult to believe that Zimmerman's neighborhood watch duties made it necessary to carry a fully loaded magazine and an extra round in the chamber. How many people did he think he might have to shoot?

 

[ravdin]

eta: the Boston Herald story makes no sense, an autoloading weapon with a round in the chamber and a full magazine will load a round from the magazine once fired. It's impossible to fire it and still have a full magazine.

I don't think so, but now that you mention it I'll take the story with a grain of salt. You could load a round into the chamber, remove the magazine, and put another round into it. If Zimmerman went to that much trouble to make sure he could fire as many rounds as possible then he really is crazy.

 

[tyr_13]

It's actually a fairly common practice, and doesn't reasonably indicate anything that carrying a weapon doesn't already.

 

[ravdin]

It's actually a fairly common practice, and doesn't reasonably indicate anything that carrying a weapon doesn't already.

Good point, and I didn't mean to blow it out of proportion. It proves absolutely nothing one way or the other.

 

[Checkmite]

I find it very difficult to believe that Zimmerman's neighborhood watch duties made it necessary to carry a fully loaded magazine and an extra round in the chamber. How many people did he think he might have to shoot?

Hey, you never know when your neighborhood might be suddenly invaded by a whole flock of like a dozen black teens, just roaming free without restriction. It's best to be prepared for any eventuality.

 

[LTC8K6]

And a kid who's just come back from buying Skittles and a canned drink...?

No.

It was the first word in my post.

No.

How did you miss it?

Besides, what would a citizen's arrest have to do with this case?

 

[LTC8K6]

Double action, the fatal bullet was in the chamber:Zimmerman would have still had to pull the trigger a fair distance but I'm trying to picture this not being familiar with guns. Does the shooter have to get a bullet from the clip to the chamber and then pull the trigger which cocks the gun and fires it, or does "cocking the gun" with the single trigger pull also put the bullet from the clip into the chamber?

The Kel-tec does not use clips. It uses removeable magazines.

Clips are devices used to fill magazines, generally on guns with fixed internal magazines, or to hold rounds in a revolver's cylinder.

The long trigger pull on the pf9 cocks the pistol and fires the round in the chamber.

To put a round in the chamber, you would insert a full magazine, pull the slide back and release it, then remove the magazine, and replace the round that went into the chamber.

You now have a full magazine, plus one in the chamber.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow, it has even reached the news here.

Via Google Translate: http://translate.google.com/transla...dk/nyheder/politik/article1731283.ece&act=url

 

[varwoche]

Filling in other facts that aren't in dispute(?):

(1) Armed vigilante follows innocent, unarmed youth

(2) Youth attempts to flee

(3) Vigilante pursues youth

(4) Vigilante kills youth

The evidence that Zimmerman initiated the violence is too strong for him not to be tried.

 

[LTC8K6]

Citizens arrest is only applicable in Florida for misdemeanors or breaches of peace that occurred in YOUR physical presence.

See:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...ate,+690+So.2d+706&hl=en&as_sdt=2,10&as_vis=1

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/437/1112/477686/

(section 17)

Also, footnote number 3

He could NOT, under any definition under Florida law, claim he had a right to effect a citizen's arrest.

If he were to try to claim that, it would be invalid.

No one said a citizen's arrest had anything to do with this case.

 

[LTC8K6]

From the same article:

In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber (reducing the number of bullets in the magazine by one), removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, then replaced the magazine in the gun. If Zimmerman had fired two shots, the magazine would have one less cartridge/bullet than its full capacity.​

My understanding is that once a round is in the chamber of a semi-automatic, you take the safety off and the gun is ready to be fired. There is no need to "cock the gun". After the initial bullet is fired, a second round is automatically chambered, with the spent shell being ejected.

I actually do not rack the slide to put a round in the chamber, though it is common to do it that way.

With the slide back and the magazine removed, I manually drop a round in the chamber, release the slide, and then insert a full magazine.

Less chance of a feed problem.

 

[leftysergeant]

What if Martin didn't beat Zimmerman within an inch of his life but Zimmerman claims that Martin did? In that case doesn't the law favor Zimmerman's claim?

No. Martin was minding his own business and a strange whacckadoodle interfered with his activities, causing him to have reason to believe he was in danger. At this point, Martin would have had the right to kill his stalker. His stalker, being in violation of the law by stalking Martin, had no right to defend himself other than by surrender or retreat.

 

[ravdin]

I actually do not rack the slide to put a round in the chamber, though it is common to do it that way.

With the slide back and the magazine removed, I manually drop a round in the chamber, release the slide, and then insert a full magazine.

Less chance of a feed problem.

Another possibility. But if you really feel like you need one in the chamber before you enter the dangerous environment of central Florida's gated communities, wouldn't it be simpler to load a full magazine and cock your weapon before you start your recon mission? If you're worried about a jam, then it the extra round won't help you if you can't feed in the second one.

 

[Puppycow]

George Zimmerman's Long, Lonely War Against Black Youths Doing Things

Adam Weinstein and Matt DeLuca have pulled the logs of 911 calls that George Zimmerman made before this year's shooting. Spot the pattern. From Weinstein:

In August 2011, he called to report a black male in a tank top and shorts acting suspicious near the development's back entrance. "[Complainant] believes [subject] is involved in recent S-21s"—break-ins—"in the neighborhood," the call log states. The suspect, Zimmerman told the dispatcher, fit a recent description given out by law enforcement officers.​

Three days later, he called to report two black teens in the same area, for the same reason. "[Juveniles] are the subjs who have been [burglarizing] in this area," he told the dispatcher.

From DeLuca:

On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.​

Add this to Trayvon call, when Zimmerman apparently muttered a racial slur, and you have to ask if Zimmerman had a hang-up about young black men in the gated community.

 

[leftysergeant]

I don't think so, but now that you mention it I'll take the story with a grain of salt. You could load a round into the chamber, remove the magazine, and put another round into it. If Zimmerman went to that much trouble to make sure he could fire as many rounds as possible then he really is crazy.

I carry mine like that, when I am carrying a semi-auto. (I prefer revolvers for CCW.) Having a live round chambered saves about two seconds from reach-for-a-weapon-to-discharge-weapon. That's time for a punk with a knife to slice-and-dice you.

If you are set upon by a gang, or yourt assailant is firing and maneuvering from cover-to-cover, one round might not be enough.

Generally, the first guy to run out of ammo loses.

 

[applecorped]

Dylan is guilty.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, but it's being used (repeatedly, and repeatedly here as well) to say that Zimmerman had been told, ordered even, by the cops to not follow Martin. That sets Zimmerman up to say that he was looking for trouble and ignored the police.

It was a 911 dispatch operator who told him he didn't need to follow Martin. That's all.

Clearly it wasn't "an order" but for the record, dispatch can be part of PD. I don't know about FL or that specific dispatch but I do work for a number of local PD departments and in some of them PD and dispatch are all one agency.

 

[leftysergeant]

I find it very difficult to believe that Zimmerman's neighborhood watch duties made it necessary to carry a fully loaded magazine and an extra round in the chamber. How many people did he think he might have to shoot?

The neighborhood watch rules are quite clear that members are to do surveillance only fromn their homes or vehicles and are allowed to use deadly force only when someone is directly attacking another person or trying to break into the the home or vehiclke.

The idiot was wrong whern he dismounted to pursue Martin.