Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Unabogie]

And as we all know no one ever lies in domestic dispute cases.

Including Zimmerman?

And please note the MO is the same as in the present case. He stalked her, provoked a confrontation, then got physical. When reported to the police, he claimed self-defense.

Just like with Trayvon Martin.

In both cases, the entire situation would have been avoided if George Zimmerman had not created the confrontation in the first place.

But with his history, you don't think there's a pattern here of a guy who keeps losing his cool?

 

[leftysergeant]

I don't think that term means what you think it means. It certainly doesn't apply to this case.

Cow coolies. He announced his intention to follow an unarmed person who had committed no known crime, he announced that it was his intention thatthe individual he was following would not be permitted to leave the area before the police arrived. He put the individual he was following into such a state of fear that, under Florida SYG laws, trhe individuall wouldl have had a right to stomp a mud hole in the fat little poppinjays chest, and then used that individuals actions as justification to shoot him.

PRIMA FACIA. They had a phone conversation with the dirt bag which should itself have been considered prima facia evidence of felonious false imprisonment.

If that scum bags firearms and ammo have not been locked away in the county evidence room, somebody needs to be fired for that.

A real adult cop would have had to have turned in his weapon over something like this.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There are two ways to define "criminal record".So yes, really.

...while in others it also includes arrests, charges dismissed, charges pending and even charges of which the individual has been acquitted. The latter policy is often argued to be a human rights violation since it works contrary to the presumption of innocence by exposing people to discrimination on the basis of unproven allegations.

So you choose the definition that is often argued to be a human rights violation ?

 

[LTC8K6]

Nice strawman. Of course Zimmerman's self defense claim shouldn't be ignored. None of the factors at play here should be, including his past actions.

Zimmerman is and should be presumed innocent until proven otherwise. I'm not claiming his guilt has been proven. I'm merely claiming there's a prima facie case to be made that he shot Martin maliciously and without reasonable grounds to fear for his life. That's all that would be needed to charge him with a crime. It would be up to a judge and jury to decide if he is guilty or not.

I also claim that the Sanford PD bungled the case by prematurely exonerating Zimmerman. If there's any silver lining, it's that the incompetence of the police chief has been brought to light and that he's been subsequently ousted.

You can claim whatever you want. FL law still applies.

Sanford PD forwarded a report on the case to the DA. The DA sent the case before the Grand Jury.

If the report done by the PD exonerated Zimmerman in a self defense case, why did the DA send the case to the GJ?

Under FL law, with a police report exonerating a man in a self defense case, there would be no reason to send the case forward as far as I can see. Zimmerman's lawyer would have a field day and a jury is going to quickly return a not guilty verdict.

I can't imagine a DA proceeding in a case where the police report exonerates a suspect.

 

[johnny karate]

A bit of a hothead.

You can't leave out a whole word and then claim to be quoting me...

Fair enough. Then I guess he's only a bit more likely to commit murder.

 

[LTC8K6]

Fair enough. Then I guess he's only a bit more likely to commit murder.

"A bit of a hothead" is not a criminal record...

"Hothead" is also not a criminal record...

Neither will show up in a police background check...

"Easily angered" does not mean easily murderous...or even violent...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...while in others it also includes arrests, charges dismissed, charges pending and even charges of which the individual has been acquitted. The latter policy is often argued to be a human rights violation since it works contrary to the presumption of innocence by exposing people to discrimination on the basis of unproven allegations.

So you choose the definition that is often argued to be a human rights violation ?

You're reading waaaay too much into this.

There is a pattern in Zimmerman's criminal record. Not being restricted to juror rules where one doesn't get to see prior history kinds of evidence, I find the evidence at least worth mentioning.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, because as the perpetrator of a crime (assault in this case) you cannot claim self defense.

So does the law allow a person in FL to physically restrain/detain a person just because you're the neighborhood watch dog and you don't like the person's looks? There was no crime committed here and so no fleeing suspect excuse or anything close.

 

[johnny karate]

"A bit of a hothead" is not a criminal record...

"Hothead" is also not a criminal record...

Neither will show up in a police background check...

"Easily angered" does not mean easily murderous...or even violent...

I don't recall saying that "a bit of a hothead" = criminal record.

Nor am I suggesting that "hothead" automatically = murderer.

I'm merely challenging your assertion that someone who is a hothead wouldn't be more prone to violence (i.e. murder), when in fact that's the very definition of "hothead".

Someone quick to anger and more prone to violence is more likely to commit murder because those traits are the usual antecedents to committing murder.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And which way is valid in this case?

It is just as valid to know what kind of guy Zimmerman was as it is to know what kind of guy Trayvon was. If we were jurors that would be a different matter.


I know you are on the 'self defense is my right' side of this issue. I am on the 'OMG, that was a 17 yr old kid minding his own business when some cop wannabe killed him' side. That doesn't mean we can't both be open minded to the 'facts turning out to not be what we think they might be'.

What kind of people both these guys are goes to the evidence when one is speculating in a forum. I think all the information is valid to consider. You can cherry pick whatever you want to include.


BTW, "Zimmerman got off with a pretrial diversion program" does not say not guilty. It says guilty with a deferred conviction.

 

[ravdin]

No, because as the perpetrator of a crime (assault in this case) you cannot claim self defense.

I can't say it's so clear cut who was the perpetrator and who was acting in self defense.

 

[LTC8K6]

So does the law allow a person in FL to physically restrain/detain a person just because you're the neighborhood watch dog and you don't like the person's looks? There was no crime committed here and so no fleeing suspect excuse or anything close.

No, you have to believe the person is committing or has just committed a felony. You don't need to be a neighborhood watch member. Any citizen can make such an arrest.

Most jurisdictions have a citizen's arrest provision.

You can arrest and detain a bank robber coming out of a bank in the act, for example.

Or a drunk trying to drive off in his car.

 

[RandFan]

No, because as the perpetrator of a crime (assault in this case) you cannot claim self defense.

Begging the question. The premise implicitly assumes the conclusion. Circular. If someone is dead then there is no self defense because the fact that someone is dead proves that there is an assault and you cannot claim self defense if there is an assault.

 

[leftysergeant]

Under FL law, with a police report exonerating a man in a self defense case, there would be no reason to send the case forward as far as I can see. Zimmerman's lawyer would have a field day and a jury is going to quickly return a not guilty verdict.

Of course, if the police are shown to have been utter morons in exonerating him, it takes on a whole new dimension.

There is nothing to clear the dirtbag of false imprisonment in interfering with Martin's activities. We have clear police misconduct just on that count.

The chief needs to be fired now for cause.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't recall saying that "a bit of a hothead" = criminal record.

Nor am I suggesting that "hothead" automatically = murderer.

I'm merely challenging your assertion that someone who is a hothead wouldn't be more prone to violence (i.e. murder), when in fact that's the very definition of "hothead".

Someone quick to anger and more prone to violence is more likely to commit murder because those traits are the usual antecedents to committing murder.

It sounded like you would expect the police to be aware of my friend's tendency. Or Zimmerman's supposed ones.

I don't think background checks show anything but the facts.

At any rate, in the police statement, they say they were aware of Zimmerman's background.

 

[leftysergeant]

No, you have to believe the person is committing or has just committed a felony. You don't need to be a neighborhood watch member. Any citizen can make such an arrest.

The dirtbag did not witness a crime, so detaining Martin was a crime.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, you have to believe the person is committing or has just committed a felony. You don't need to be a neighborhood watch member. Any citizen can make such an arrest.

Most jurisdictions have a citizen's arrest provision.

You can arrest and detain a bank robber coming out of a bank in the act, for example.

Or a drunk trying to drive off in his car.

So why wouldn't the police have seen Zimmerman as initiating a confrontation here regardless if Trayvon fought back? There was no crime that had been committed.


On another note: If Trayvon hit Zimmerman there should be evidence of that in the autopsy. So a voice analysis of the 911 tape and evidence on Trayvon's hands in the autopsy should confirm or refute at least Zimmerman's story he gave the police.

 

[ravdin]

No, you have to believe the person is committing or has just committed a felony. You don't need to be a neighborhood watch member. Any citizen can make such an arrest.

Most jurisdictions have a citizen's arrest provision.

You can arrest and detain a bank robber coming out of a bank in the act, for example.

Or a drunk trying to drive off in his car.

That's a very sensible law. On what grounds did George Zimmerman believe that Trayvon Martin had committed a felony?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can't say it's so clear cut who was the perpetrator and who was acting in self defense.

Trayvon's girlfriend's testimony backed by the record of the exact time the call was made and ended, matched to the timing of the police arrival at a minimum corroborates the fact Zimmerman was the initial aggressor.

 

[johnny karate]

I can't say it's so clear cut who was the perpetrator and who was acting in self defense.

Case in point.

After a gang shoot-out in the middle of the street, the "winners" were exonerated of murder charges after claiming self-defense under the "Stand Your Ground" law.