• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Really?

How can anyone have any accurate information on the state of the deceased's mind just before he was shot?

I honestly don't know for sure, but to the best of my knowledge, guesses aren't allowed as evidence?

An honest question - are they?

No. The conversation would go like this.

Defense: "Can you tell me what you believe Mr. Martin was thinki-"

Prosecutor : "OBJECTION! Calls for speculation and assumes facts not in evidence. "

Judge : "Sustained. Move on councilor"

That's pretty much it.
 
The police do not make such rulings. Only the DA, as far as I know.

Even for a speeding ticket, it was the DA who I spoke to about the charge. It was the DA who could make a deal. The officer who gave the ticket only presents his evidence to the DA.

While correct, if the SPD rules "Yep, self defense" and doesn't even contact a possible ear-witness (The phone records show Martin was on the phone at 7:16pm, and the number was never contacted, nothing. Officers arrived at 7:17pm) then they don't even have enough evidence to prove a damn thing.

They didn't run a background check on Zimmerman to know if he had any kind of history whatsoever. They took him at his word.

They did not do any kind of BAL or blood tests whatsoever. That evidence, if there was any evidence at the time, is forever gone.

They did not contact the last person Martin spoke with to interview her. Her statement as to what occurred IMMEDIATELY prior to his death, is INVALUABLE. They didn't do this.

The SPD didn't have probable cause to do a damn thing, because they didn't investigate. If they had DONE their job, on the night that Martin was killed, the DA most likely would have filed charges WEEKS ago.

The underlying problem is Sanford PD sat on their asses and did nothing.

Indict the SPD detective(s) for dereliction of duty. That's my opinion.
 
An overly-officious SOB who keeps calling the police about things that he claims look wrong in his neighborhood has to get out of his truck to see where he is? Does that idiot take us to be as stupid as he is? There is no way he can claim not to know where he was in that limited space, after claiming to know whether things looked right or not there.

Especially since now we find out that (According to the victim's girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin seconds before the shooting) that Martin at some point asked Zimmerman "Why are you following me?" and the response was "What are you doing around here?" doesn't match at ALL what Zimmerman has claimed. How was he attacked from behind, while he was looking for a street sign, when there is no street sign where the fight occurred? How is that possible?
 
While correct, if the SPD rules "Yep, self defense" and doesn't even contact a possible ear-witness (The phone records show Martin was on the phone at 7:16pm, and the number was never contacted, nothing. Officers arrived at 7:17pm) then they don't even have enough evidence to prove a damn thing.

They didn't run a background check on Zimmerman to know if he had any kind of history whatsoever. They took him at his word.

They did not do any kind of BAL or blood tests whatsoever. That evidence, if there was any evidence at the time, is forever gone.

They did not contact the last person Martin spoke with to interview her. Her statement as to what occurred IMMEDIATELY prior to his death, is INVALUABLE. They didn't do this.

The SPD didn't have probable cause to do a damn thing, because they didn't investigate. If they had DONE their job, on the night that Martin was killed, the DA most likely would have filed charges WEEKS ago.

The underlying problem is Sanford PD sat on their asses and did nothing.

Indict the SPD detective(s) for dereliction of duty. That's my opinion.

I'm not sure what your background is, though you seem to have intimated it's in Law Enforcement. At this point, what are the chances of this happening? I don't see it coming about at all.
 
triforcharity

While I honestly do not know how SYG will affect the case, I'll say this. You have provided some great responses and information. Some very compelling stuff.

Thank you.
 
According to the police report, he was handcuffed, placed in the back of a car and detained for questioning. Without an official charge, they can only keep him for so long.
Most of the time that is 72 hours, not a couple minutes or hours.
 
No. The conversation would go like this.

Defense: "Can you tell me what you believe Mr. Martin was thinki-"

Prosecutor : "OBJECTION! Calls for speculation and assumes facts not in evidence. "

Judge : "Sustained. Move on councilor"

That's pretty much it.
That's not even close to what I was saying.

Defense: Did Martin ever say he wanted to call the police on Zimmerman?
Girl: No.
Defense: Did you at any point offer to call the police for him?
Girl: No.
Defense: Would you call the police on someone you felt was a threat?
Girl: Yes, of course.
Defense: So you didn't think Martin was at risk from Zimmerman?
Etc etc.

And I'm no defense attorney.

If the claim is going to be that Martin ran in fear of Zimmerman, they'll have to explain why he stayed on the phone with his girlfriend instead of calling the police.
 
...

Remember that there is a heavy presumption of innocence towards Zimmerman, and a heavy burden of proof on any DA trying to prosecute.

It is nowhere near enough for it to look or seem like Zimmerman murdered Martin.
The other side of the coin here is the courts can decide if it was self defense rather than the cops.

Though it does say Zimmerman was questioned at the station, it doesn't say why he was not arrested other than his word for it he was calling for help.

If the 911 tapes turn out to prove it was Trayvon's voice that certainly changes the credibility of Zimmerman, not that his story is credible so far based on the fact Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by so much.
 
Last edited:
You are correct. Guesses aren't generally allowed as evidence. Though guesses masquerading as "opinions", when given by supposedly qualified "experts", are allowed as evidence.



Defense attorneys certainly are constrained in their ability to present evidence which is based on nothing more than speculation. They may be able to present ARGUMENTS that are speculative. But they will not have wide leeway to expore such arguments absent some solid foundational evidence.

To use your example, the court, as a matter of fact, indeed limited OJ's lawyers' ability to follow-up on the "Columbian druglord" angle.

Thank you.
 
No. The conversation would go like this.

Defense: "Can you tell me what you believe Mr. Martin was thinki-"

Prosecutor : "OBJECTION! Calls for speculation and assumes facts not in evidence. "

Judge : "Sustained. Move on councilor"

That's pretty much it.

That's What I thought!

Thanks.
 
It'll move the deaths back to drivers rather than car-jackers anyway. Or whitey and/or hispanic (running) with a broken-down vehicle in the ghetto.

At least the cocaine-cowboy violence has abated, although a pistol against a machine gun is long odds usually favoring the machine gun wielder.

On multiple occasions using .45 Thompson and ingram 9mm I have fired full magazines at man sized targets from under 25 ft. without landing a single bullet in the target area. With a pistol (.357 mag up to .45) at the same distance, all my shots hit the com or head. I'll take the pistol - or a good rifle or shotgun. The submachine/machine gun is for putting bullets into large masses of people. So, if I have good reson to think a lot of people will be coming at me I will change my choice for that situation!!*:D




*Though, for that I actually would prefer a Streetsweeper.AKA: http://www.shop.umlautarms.com/Sentinel-Arms-Co-Striker-12-SAC-STRIKER12.htm
 
Great. The person on the ground was unarmed and according to press reports weighed 100 pounds less than the shooter. Those facts by themselves raise questions about self-defense. I can't believe that the law, even in Florida, allows anybody to kill anybody anyplace if they just claim they were scared.

The Florida law says this:
"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony....."
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

So was Zimmerman attacked by Martin out of the blue, or did Zimmerman grab Martin and Martin fought back? If it's the latter, as is looking likely, then Zimmerman started the fight by assaulting Martin and can't claim the right of self-defense. Is it reasonable for a large armed man to believe that he is in danger of death or great bodily harm from a much smaller unarmed man? These are questions that can only be resolved after an investigation. It's way too early to be granting immunity to a killer.

^^^^ This.

This is EXACTLY my entire argument. He did NOT meet force with force. He took a gun and used it, when a fist would have more than sufficed.

If, as the evidence implies (and the fact that Zimmerman's story doesn't match the evidence available) that Martin was attacked, then Zimmerman has NO right to use deadly force whatsoever.

If you start a fight, you have no right under Florida law to claim anything self defense. Not one bit.

You are then the criminal, and whomever you attacked, is the victim. You cannot switch places. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
 

Rep. Brown on why she's suggesting 'hate crime' charges in Trayvon shooting, says Zimmerman should have gun permit revoked


Also, I'm sure this was brought up before, however, Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman wasn't. It didn't dawn on me the significance of this. (or is that SOP in Florida autopsies?)

Testing a deceased for drugs and alcohol is SOP for almost every autopsy. However, it is also SOP (From what I can gather) for anyone involved in a shooting of any kind.
 
I'm not sure what your background is, though you seem to have intimated it's in Law Enforcement. At this point, what are the chances of this happening? I don't see it coming about at all.

I have many friends and family in law enforcement. Nothing for me personally. However, Florida gun laws are a topic on which I am well versed on, as I am an avid hunter, gun enthusiast and concealed weapons permit holder.
 
That's not even close to what I was saying.

Defense: Did Martin ever say he wanted to call the police on Zimmerman?
Girl: No.
Defense: Did you at any point offer to call the police for him?
Girl: No.
Defense: Would you call the police on someone you felt was a threat?
Girl: Yes, of course.
Defense: So you didn't think Martin was at risk from Zimmerman?
Etc etc.

And I'm no defense attorney.

If the claim is going to be that Martin ran in fear of Zimmerman, they'll have to explain why he stayed on the phone with his girlfriend instead of calling the police.

When you word it that way, it may be allowed. However, asking anything about what Martin felt, or anything of the sort, would not.
 
I have many friends and family in law enforcement. Nothing for me personally. However, Florida gun laws are a topic on which I am well versed on, as I am an avid hunter, gun enthusiast and concealed weapons permit holder.

Sounds good. Thanks. Looks like you've spent your time doing some accurate and in-depth research. That's very appreciated.
 
Here's an interesting note that I found in the police report.

It states that Zimmerman's shirt was wet, and had grass on it. The officer also said that Zimmerman had a bloodied nose, and was bleeding from his nose and back of his head. He was treated AT THE SCENE by the Sanford Fire Department.

Now, if Zimmerman was in such fear for his life that he had to resort to using deadly force, why were his wounds so insignificant that the SFD treated him at the scene, without referring him to the local hospital?

If his wounds required nothing more than some tape and a 4x4 piece of gauze, and no referral to the local emergency room, how is it that he could claim that he was in such fear for his life?

It doesn't make ANY sense to me.

Even IF Martin was the attacker, he went above and beyond what the state statute calls meeting force with force. He used deadly force, when he had superficial wounds on him. Now, I would be completely on Zimmerman's side if he had a cracked skull, and two black eyes, and a broken jaw. But, what what I see, he had a little ******* scrape on his head. However, this is not the case. Treated at the scene. (Paramedics in Florida cannot suture, so stitches were NOT required)

How can this be ruled justifiable?

Here's what I believe happened.

Martin was observed walking through the neighborhood by Zimmerman. Zimmerman. found this suspicious for whatever reason. Zimmerman begins to follow Martin, and Martin begins to walk faster, then decided to run to his father's house.

Zimmerman get's upset, thinking this kid is up to no good, and follows him. Zimmerman finds Martin between the two rows of houses, jumps out of his car, and Martin asks him why he is following. Zimmerman, instead of explaining himself, and being cordial, he goes on the offensive. He ask's Martin what he is doing, and Martin (this is speculation) tells him to **** off, or go kick rocks, or whatever, and this makes Zimmerman VERY mad! (HOW DARE he disrespect ME! I am the neighborhood watch captain, and I have a gun)

He being to attack Martin, but Martin fights back. (I've spoken to many LEO's, and they say that some of the "best" fights come from small, relitivily light kids) This surprises Zimmerman that this little punk kid is getting the best of him, which makes him even more mad. (All this time, Martin [whom is who I believe is crying for help in the tape] is screaming for help, hoping his father or father's girlfriend will come to his aid. According to the attorney for Martin family, he was 70 yards from his father's house)

Zimmerman is finally able to free himself from Martin, and is enraged. Martin is attempting to leave, but doesn't want to turn his back on Zimmerman in fear of another attack. So, he decides that he's had enough, and pulls out a small Kel Tec 9mm pistol as Martin's pleas for help intensify, but tragically, fall on "deaf" ears. Zimmerman is as mad as a hornet, believing that Martin is guilty of some kind of crime, fires off one shot.

So, that's my theory. It's based solely on speculation, but it seems like a reasonable, and plausible theory.

(We know that Zimmerman has a bit of an anger problem. I mean, who calls the cops and follows someone to another town 14 miles down the road for getting into a shouting match over a road incident, and calling the cops because the other guy spit on your windshield? )

Feel free to point out anything that would seem more plausible, or if something I said doesn't make any sense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom