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Santorum gone too far

Geez, have none of you ever met any porn stars?

Female porn stars (defined as those who are well known in the industry, can sell porn by being in it and use porn as a major income source) are gorgeous. That's why they're stars. Studies have shown that attractiveness is a benefit in society and affects how people interact. They know that they are attractive and come to LA to be an actress. The ones who are suited for porn find their way into that business.

Professional porn stars are paid quite well, have managers, have some say in what they will/won't do and with whom. It is more difficult for men to break into porn then women because personality conflicts can make for a difficult shoot. It is an industry where most of the stars are women and those women have a decent amount of control.

Porn stars start off young, and some of them make quite a lot of money in a short period of time. For some this can lead to substance abuse problems but it seems to be on the same scale as other forms of entertainment. (Musicians or actors who get signed in their early 20's are also prone to a party life style and side-effect hazards.) Some trust their managers enough to start investing immediately and manage to save quite a bit. I know a real estate broker who deals primarily with porn stars here in Los Angeles where homes are not cheap.

Most of them enjoy the work (although after a long day, they will gripe like any employee.) I've spoken to quite a few who see porn as the ultimate sex-positive feminism. (I wonder how many people here would be depressed to to know that a favorite could go on and on about "My body, my choice!" and "counter-exploiting the patriarchy.") Most of them get a little huffy about the must-have-been-molested myth because whether they were or weren't, they made the choice to get into porn, knew what they were getting into and have no difficulty owning that.

They really aren't that different from the other actresses, except that the ones who are open about it are a bit more prone to self-promotion. Plus, they're more interesting. More likely to have just gotten back from Europe (or sometimes Saudi Arabia.)

Of course these are the ones who have made it. Like most successful people, they have some spark, some strength or charisma that helped them get to the top in a competitive field.
 
bookitty said:
Geez, have none of you ever met any porn stars?

Female porn stars (defined as those who are well known in the industry, can sell porn by being in it and use porn as a major income source) are gorgeous. That's why they're stars. Studies have shown that attractiveness is a benefit in society and affects how people interact. They know that they are attractive and come to LA to be an actress. The ones who are suited for porn find their way into that business.

Professional porn stars are paid quite well, have managers, have some say in what they will/won't do and with whom. It is more difficult for men to break into porn then women because personality conflicts can make for a difficult shoot. It is an industry where most of the stars are women and those women have a decent amount of control.

Porn stars start off young, and some of them make quite a lot of money in a short period of time. For some this can lead to substance abuse problems but it seems to be on the same scale as other forms of entertainment. (Musicians or actors who get signed in their early 20's are also prone to a party life style and side-effect hazards.) Some trust their managers enough to start investing immediately and manage to save quite a bit. I know a real estate broker who deals primarily with porn stars here in Los Angeles where homes are not cheap.

Most of them enjoy the work (although after a long day, they will gripe like any employee.) I've spoken to quite a few who see porn as the ultimate sex-positive feminism. (I wonder how many people here would be depressed to to know that a favorite could go on and on about "My body, my choice!" and "counter-exploiting the patriarchy.") Most of them get a little huffy about the must-have-been-molested myth because whether they were or weren't, they made the choice to get into porn, knew what they were getting into and have no difficulty owning that.

They really aren't that different from the other actresses, except that the ones who are open about it are a bit more prone to self-promotion. Plus, they're more interesting. More likely to have just gotten back from Europe (or sometimes Saudi Arabia.)

Of course these are the ones who have made it. Like most successful people, they have some spark, some strength or charisma that helped them get to the top in a competitive field.
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Actually, no. I've never met any porn stars. Fun enough to watch, I guess, and there are a few I thought were quite attractive, (Cherry Brady and Samantha Anderson), but I never thought about making the effort. I doubt I could carry on a relationship with one, perhaps due to lingering patriarchal attitudes, but that's me.

That said, I'm fairly aware of much of the rest of what you've written. For the most part, many have made much of Tracy Lords' autobiography, calling it BS for the most part, simply because she refuses to own up to her past and her own role in it. You don't have to like what they do to appreciate an attitude like theirs, that you go in eyes open and know what you're up to from the start. That there will be consequences for your actions, like it or not.

And there's another side to this as well: Jameson was a highly astute business woman, and built a good living for herself. Asia Carrera was in the same position, and has proven to be highly articulate, particularly about losing her husband and raising her kids on her own. These women are not stupid.

I'll repeat myself: Santorum is freaking out. He's freaking out about the wrong things at a time when we need rational action to bolster trust in our economic institutions. Frankly, right now, I wouldn't trust the Fed, and I sure as hell don't trust Bank of America. He would give me something resembling a reason to trust him if he'd take on establishing the kind of faith in our economy we need rather than chasing phantoms.
 
cwalner said:
Not entirely. If a particular profession had an exceptionally high percentage of abuse victims then it is a reasonable hypothesis that there is something intrinsic in the profession that it relies on previously exploited people in its labor pool. However it is also a reasonably hypothesis that it is not intrinsic to the profession, but is related to societal values regarding that profession.

I would not be very surprised to learn that sex professions (especially in the USA) had a higher percentage of previously sexually exploited people in their ranks. But I would tend to ascribe such distinction to the USA's attitudes towards sex more than I would to anything intrinsic to the professions.
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It is still irrelevant. Unless the industry itself is creating the sex abuse then it has no place in the discussion.
 
Travis said:
So you brought this up for no reason then?
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Not everything one has concerns about requires one wanting to ban it. I love alcohol...... A lot of Muslim countries ban alcohol. Just because I don't want it banned does not mean I can't wonder about it's effects both good and bad.

Do you follow?
 
You're talking to someone that ran a very ineffective campaign in college to re-institute a nationwide ban on alcohol starting in the university system. Oh those were my wild days. So full of optimism and energy in trying to carry out hairbrained schemes.
 
bookitty said:
Geez, have none of you ever met any porn stars?

Female porn stars (defined as those who are well known in the industry, can sell porn by being in it and use porn as a major income source) are gorgeous. That's why they're stars. Studies have shown that attractiveness is a benefit in society and affects how people interact. They know that they are attractive and come to LA to be an actress. The ones who are suited for porn find their way into that business.

Professional porn stars are paid quite well, have managers, have some say in what they will/won't do and with whom. It is more difficult for men to break into porn then women because personality conflicts can make for a difficult shoot. It is an industry where most of the stars are women and those women have a decent amount of control.

Porn stars start off young, and some of them make quite a lot of money in a short period of time. For some this can lead to substance abuse problems but it seems to be on the same scale as other forms of entertainment. (Musicians or actors who get signed in their early 20's are also prone to a party life style and side-effect hazards.) Some trust their managers enough to start investing immediately and manage to save quite a bit. I know a real estate broker who deals primarily with porn stars here in Los Angeles where homes are not cheap.

Most of them enjoy the work (although after a long day, they will gripe like any employee.) I've spoken to quite a few who see porn as the ultimate sex-positive feminism. (I wonder how many people here would be depressed to to know that a favorite could go on and on about "My body, my choice!" and "counter-exploiting the patriarchy.") Most of them get a little huffy about the must-have-been-molested myth because whether they were or weren't, they made the choice to get into porn, knew what they were getting into and have no difficulty owning that.

They really aren't that different from the other actresses, except that the ones who are open about it are a bit more prone to self-promotion. Plus, they're more interesting. More likely to have just gotten back from Europe (or sometimes Saudi Arabia.)

Of course these are the ones who have made it. Like most successful people, they have some spark, some strength or charisma that helped them get to the top in a competitive field.
Click to expand...
that may be true for the stars but how is life for those on the fringe who are not stars. Especially now when it is easy for people to make and post videos. You don't think there are a lot of young runaways being used. I wonder how many of these there are for each star with a good life.
I don't really know any stars although Linda Lovelace lived a few blocks away.
I do know one young girl who ran away and ended up in the bad situation I described.

I do not know the statistics but common sense , which can be wrong, tells me all the demeaning behavior and violence toward women can't be good.
 
eeyore1954 said:
I do not know the statistics but common sense , which can be wrong, tells me all the demeaning behavior and violence toward women can't be good.
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I used to get my porn off empornium. It was a great torrent site with about a billion files...... Of course I didn't have a clue what was what, so I would look at what was the most popular or most downloaded. I was amazed at just how incredibly dirty so much of the top 10 was. So much stuff themed around "father and daughter" or "Father and step daughter.".... There are some weird dudes out there.
 
eeyore1954 said:
that may be true for the stars but how is life for those on the fringe who are not stars. Especially now when it is easy for people to make and post videos. You don't think there are a lot of young runaways being used. I wonder how many of these there are for each star with a good life.
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Pornography producers are required to document all their employees extensively. Not only do they need to see multiple proofs of identification they are required to keep copies in safe places for future inspection.

So unless a young runaway has numerous high quality fake ID's they are not ending up in a pornographic film.

eeyore1954 said:
I don't really know any stars although Linda Lovelace lived a few blocks away.
I do know one young girl who ran away and ended up in the bad situation I described.
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She ended up in porn? How did this happen?

eeyore1954 said:
I do not know the statistics but common sense , which can be wrong, tells me all the demeaning behavior and violence toward women can't be good.
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What violence? How is it demeaning?
 
eeyore1954 said:
I do not know the statistics but common sense , which can be wrong, tells me all the demeaning behavior and violence toward women can't be good.
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Let's grant the premise for arguments sake, and? There are sweat shops. There are many industries with deplorable conditions and exploitation. I find it interesting that the one area that folks on the right truly care about the conditions of employees is porn. I'm not saying you specifically eeyore. I just don't find a lot of concern about the dignity or working conditions for most poor people. If they are asked to consider social programs to improve their lot the empathy seems to dissipate rather quickly.
 
RandFan said:
Let's grant the premise for arguments sake, and? There are sweat shops. There are many industries with deplorable conditions and exploitation. I find it interesting that the one area that folks on the right truly care about the conditions of employees is porn. I'm not saying you specifically eeyore. I just don't find a lot of concern about the dignity or working conditions for most poor people. If they are asked to consider social programs to improve their lot the empathy seems to dissipate rather quickly.
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Let us put "violence" in quotes.

Is an S&M video violence against women?

What if the woman LIKES it, seeks it out, and isn't doing any different things on the video than she does in her real life?
 
eeyore1954 said:
that may be true for the stars but how is life for those on the fringe who are not stars. Especially now when it is easy for people to make and post videos. You don't think there are a lot of young runaways being used. I wonder how many of these there are for each star with a good life.
I don't really know any stars although Linda Lovelace lived a few blocks away.
I do know one young girl who ran away and ended up in the bad situation I described.

I do not know the statistics but common sense , which can be wrong, tells me all the demeaning behavior and violence toward women can't be good.
Click to expand...

Amateur porn for legal distribution will use actors who are over 18. Penalties for kiddie porn are too high to risk. Under-aged runaways (both male and female) who can't get work may end up as prostitutes or low end drug dealers. After they turn 18 (in Los Angeles, blue laws vary widely) the girls can work at one of the full-nude/no alcohol strip clubs. At 21 they can work at bikini/topless bars which sell booze. Porn is a step up.

I don't watch a lot of porn so I have no idea if recent trends are more/less demeaning towards women. But I do watch horror films and have seen both sexes die violently in many creative ways. I don't see that as demeaning to the actors because film is make believe.
 
bookitty said:
Amateur porn for legal distribution will use actors who are over 18. Penalties for kiddie porn are too high to risk. Under-aged runaways (both male and female) who can't get work may end up as prostitutes or low end drug dealers. After they turn 18 (in Los Angeles, blue laws vary widely) the girls can work at one of the full-nude/no alcohol strip clubs. At 21 they can work at bikini/topless bars which sell booze. Porn is a step up.

I don't watch a lot of porn so I have no idea if recent trends are more/less demeaning towards women. But I do watch horror films and have seen both sexes die violently in many creative ways. I don't see that as demeaning to the actors because film is make believe.
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That comparison reminds me of a quote from Spanish actress Victoria Abril when she was promoting her movie Tie me Up, Tie me down (Atame) in the US. She commented on it receiving the newly minted NC17 rating as such (as best as I can recall): "I don't understand why a woman screaming in pleasure is not appropriate for children, but a woman screaming in fear is."
 
Because America has a long history of using violence to control sex. That's why people who think a visible nipple is the end of the world have no qualms with their kids seeing people hacked to pieces. The kids need to be accepting of violence in order to use violence to make sure people only have sex in a way they approve of.

This goes back to my neighbor who admits she'd rather have a president who had murdered people than a president who has threeways.
 
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