Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[crimresearch]

ABC News:
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...emergency&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-701&type_param=

The night of Feb. 26, Zimmerman made a non-emergency call to police before fatally shooting Martin, in which he told a dispatcher, "This guy looks like he's up to no good, on drugs or something."

Yet Zimmerman made a nonemergency call to police and pursued him anyway,

"These a**holes always get away," Zimmerman says in a call to a non-emergency number.

Yet Zimmerman, who claimed self-defense in shooting Martin, made a non-emergency call to police and pursued him

 

[sgtbaker]

It was reported on ABC that it was 9/11. I will check but I don't think it makes much difference. Clearly Zimmerman had real concerns.

I am getting caught up in the wrong arguments, again. Let me start over, please.

All of the headlines call it 911 but it the person answering that call says, "Sanford police department," not "911 what's your emergency?" He sounds very calm and descriptive.

In the call Zimmerman's state of mind doesn't seem casual. A person doesn't need to speak to be threatening and how a person asks "what are you doing here" can be.

But I confess that outside of the girlfriends account I have no idea.

Throughout the entire 911 call, Zimmerman sounds calm and in control. Unfortunately, that's all we really have to go on, when questioning his state of mind.

 

[sgtbaker]

DOH!

Okay, that's my cue. I've given my uneducated opinion. Let's see what happens.

Clearly it proves that everything else you've said must be wrong.

 

[RandFan]

I am getting caught up in the wrong arguments, again. Let me start over, please.

All of the headlines call it 911 but it the person answering that call says, "Sanford police department," not "911 what's your emergency?" He sounds very calm and descriptive.

Throughout the entire 911 call, Zimmerman sounds calm and in control. Unfortunately, that's all we really have to go on, when questioning his state of mind.

Clearly it proves that everything else you've said must be wrong.

Thanks for the discussion. It was good.

 

[lane99]

It will take a bit of time, but surely the shooter is going to find himself indicted.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

All of the headlines call it 911 but it the person answering that call says, "Sanford police department," not "911 what's your emergency?" He sounds very calm and descriptive.

For what it's worth, if I call 911 on my cell phone in my neighborhood, they answer "26th District Precinct (my police precinct), what's your emergency?" Hell, they've only said "What's your emergency?" once out of the three times I've called.

 

[Checkmite]

The new information from Martin's friend, who phone records indicate was on the phone with him immediately before the fight, indicates that Martin was aware he was being followed and tried to flee, first be "walking fast" and then by running.

In any case, according to CNN, the notion that Zimmerman was white came from the fact that the police report stated he was white - it wasn't something that any news agencies or outraged citizens had "assumed".

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

There's at least one Internet petition going around that slacktivists can sign to demand that Zimmerman be prosecuted.

I'm amazed that so many people are so lazy and stupid that they want to live in a world where prosecutors decide who to charge based on the results of Internet polls. No thanks, I'll pass.

 

[Travis]

No, the law doesn't say that at all.

And yet that's the result if not for a media campaign to get federal involvement.

So Zimmerman is under grand jury investigation, under FDLE investigation, he and the local cops are under federal investigation, his story is unsupported at every turn, the process of tearing his story apart began as soon as the victim's parents protested the local PD inaction... but he has a license to kill people legally, and the law says that he has gotten away with murder?

On what planet?

On this planet where he was not even at risk of being charged until people raised a stink with the feds. This planet where my little brother was locked away in solitary for 53 days charged with murdering someone that was still alive and the prosecutor knew it. Thank goodness the judge threw that out. So I have seen the face of the potential of right wing idiot laws.

So don't go thinking that huge miscarriages of justice don't happen. They do. This would have been one too if not for the extraordinary actions of those concerned.

However what happens to the next unarmed kid that gets killed by a psycho with no witnesses and a claim of dubious self defense if there isn't a fortuitous public outcry for justice?

 

[WildCat]

In any case, according to CNN, the notion that Zimmerman was white came from the fact that the police report stated he was white - it wasn't something that any news agencies or outraged citizens had "assumed".

As I said before "Hispanic" isn't a race and the FBI doesn't keep crime stats for "Hispanic" in their uniform crime statistics (which includes victims) so local police maybe don't have a check box for "Hispanic" either.

 

[WildCat]

And yet that's the result if not for a media campaign to get federal involvement.

No, it's not and I'm certain many people have successfully made a bogus claim of self-defense without the benefit of any such law.

If there's no witnesses and no other conclusive evidence that's the way it is. Like it or not, our system puts the burden of proof on the prosecution. For every person wrongfully convicted there's many more who get away, because that's the direction the playing field is tilted.

 

[crimresearch]

And yet that's the result if not for a media campaign to get federal involvement.



On this planet where he was not even at risk of being charged until people raised a stink with the feds. This planet where my little brother was locked away in solitary for 53 days charged with murdering someone that was still alive and the prosecutor knew it. Thank goodness the judge threw that out. So I have seen the face of the potential of right wing idiot laws.

So don't go thinking that huge miscarriages of justice don't happen. They do. This would have been one too if not for the extraordinary actions of those concerned.

However what happens to the next unarmed kid that gets killed by a psycho with no witnesses and a claim of dubious self defense if there isn't a fortuitous public outcry for justice?

Did you hurt yourself moving those goalposts?

Your specific claim was that the law was intentionally written to allow people to commit the crime of murder openly and with impunity as long as they invoked that magic phrase 'stand your ground'. That assertion was wrong, the law does not say what you claimed it said.

Now you have moved onto an entirely different subject (and one I already brought up here) whether or not the law is applied perfectly No one is making that claim, and it is irrational to go from imperfect application to 'the law says murder is legal'.

As far as your brother getting very wealthy from his false imprisonment and malicious prosecution judgement or settlement, that has nothing to do with the right of people to self defense, or the reality of criminals attempting to abuse those rights.

 

[Pantaz]

... he was not even at risk of being charged ...

False. Just because a person isn't immediately arrested doesn't mean charges aren't pending.

 

[RandFan]

False. Just because a person isn't immediately arrested doesn't mean charges aren't pending.

Based on what I've heard I don't think there was any kind of investigation in days following the incident. I think (I said think) it was a closed case until recently. The police said something to the effect that there was not enough evidence. Now, it's possible that there was an investigation on going but I don't think the police or DAs office said anything about an investigation until recently. AIU.

Hope there are enough caveats in that.

 

[triforcharity]

Yeah, tell me more about being perfect.

Here is what I mean:
- There is racial animosity in present-day Florida, to a degree that is perceivable by other southerners. It is worse in the interior.
- I would not rule out that a white Hispanic man in that part of the state with the right grooming, manners and—oh yes—name could be perceived and perceive himself as white in relation to black people.

It doesn't matter whether you think I'm justified in believing this or whether it hurts your feelings. Interior Florida is a pretty place IMO, more than the coast which is terribly built up. But it's a mixed bag, like so many places.

Gotcha, still nothing. Glad you posted this. Clears up that you have no idea about Florida in general.

But, I will say that the coast is pretty built up, and it has ruined it. However, there are parts that certainly are not.

Glad to see you're basing your "knowledge" on personal incredulity.

 

[triforcharity]

I hadn't seen this particular claim before. From your link ...




Mr. Neighborhood Watch Superhero who prowls the area regularly and calls the police on a nearly weekly basis doesn't know what street he's on?

Sure. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

A teenager he outweighs by 100 lbs. who is walking home from the store attacks him out of the blue with no provocation ... from behind? A teenager he had already claimed he was following?

Okayyy.

Who could question any of that?

And based on the testimony of a female friend he was speaking to on the phone immediately before he was killed, confirms that he was running away.

Phone records show that he was in fact on the phone with her up until the confrontation with Zimmerman.

Sure seems like Zimmerman is making **** up as he goes.

 

[triforcharity]

SYG is the most asinine laws every passed. How is it not a license to kill? If the victim is the only witness then all other evidence is moot. Right? You just need to lull someone into a place where you can kill them and you are off scot free.

You're misunderstanding the law.

It removes a stipulation in previous law that required you to attempt to flee a threat to your life first, before you used deadly force.

I posted a detailed post to Travis ITT, back on page 14 or 15, I don't recall.

But, your conclusion is wrong.

 

[triforcharity]

Defend himself?? Defend himself? In the face of the available evidence you think that the pursuing armed person was defending himself against an un-armed person??

Absolutely not.

So, me not being a Florida resident and thus in no way knowledgeable about it's laws, you are claiming that someone with a concealed carry permit can suddenly attack an unarmed person (attack not using a firearm, just hand and foot as it were), start to lose the encounter, then pull out a firearm and shoot the initial defendant and still use self defense as an excuse? If so, I will not be going to Florida again.

Because that is crap. Here in Virginia we have decent right-to-carry laws, but still reasonable use of force applies. I can't start a fistfight, then try to shoot my way out of it and claim self defense. That is nuts. That is worse than the normal stereotype of the U.S. as the "wild west." Is this one more thing that I have to be embarrassed about?

There has been some discussion about Florida's "no-retreat" or "stand your ground" laws. If they mean the above, that an aggressor can start a fight, then use a claim of "self-defense" to shoot and kill the original defender, then what have we come to? I'm an NRA member mostly for convenience, but that is a ridiculous extension of a reaction against laws that require an armed citizen to retreat to the point of no escape before defending themselves. There is a huge difference in being required to run and hide if suddenly attacked by someone with a weapon and being allowed to shoot someone under any circumstance in which one felt threatened, including a situation that the shooter started in the first place.

This rant is useless if you go back and read the quoted part of my post, you'd see that is has nothing to do with what you think you read.

 

[triforcharity]

So after 15+ pages of my posting careful and factual explanations, complete with references about why Zimmerman's story did not add up, and pointing out the holes in his claim of self defense, and pointing out how the systme seemd to have dropped the ball up to this point, and lining to the new federal investigation...

...You think you'll just roll in here and simply make up a fake claim about what I'm thinking and then build up strawmen about 'stalking minors is OK with you'...?

And I'm supposed to fall for that, and more importantly ignore every single thing about the legal system in this country because you've 'carried concealed'?

That's what you want to insult me with? Just a complete fabricaton that is the opposite of all I've posted here? Seriously? Seriously?? That's all you've got?

It would almost be worth getting infracted to tell you what you can do with that nonsense.

I feel about the same way. He's only reading about 10-12% of our posts, and jumping to wildly inaccurate conclusions based on the limited information he got from our posts.

Amazing this guy.....

 

[RandFan]

You're misunderstanding the law.

It removes a stipulation in previous law that required you to attempt to flee a threat to your life first, before you used deadly force.

I posted a detailed post to Travis ITT, back on page 14 or 15, I don't recall.

But, your conclusion is wrong.

I'm attacking a hypothetical based on a claim made by others (Gezpacho). I've no idea what the consequences of the law are. I admit that my point wasn't clear to those not following the sub thread of that conversation.