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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Square versus rounded. This is like a Sesame Street lesson.

Appearing squared vs Appearing rounded. Because of shadows. You would think it was simple, and yet you continue... So lets ask actual experts with actual qualificatiopns and skills in the relevent field instead of just some guy who says so...
 
40 plus consistent eye witness observations is Slam Dunk evidence.

You can keep repeating that Robert. But a slam dunk for who? This sin't a court, it isn't a conspiracy theorists group, it's a critical thinkers website. Guess what, we have standards of evidence. We explain what they are. If you fail to meet them you have nothing. Telling us how great you think 40 or 1000 or ifinite witnesses are wont change our standards.

We give priority to the physical evidence. This disproves each and all of your 40 witnesses. Your evidence is not good enough.
 
You are late to the party, but I'll give you one more try. A large blow-out in the back of the head points to an exit wound from a shot from the front. If the autopsy pics don't show that, then they are a fraud with deception begin the reason for the fraud.

You think you can see a large blow out in the back of Oswalds head in the photograph under discussion?

You realise that you are going to have to prove each photograph is faked seperately right?
 
You can keep repeating that Robert. But a slam dunk for who? This sin't a court, it isn't a conspiracy theorists group, it's a critical thinkers website. Guess what, we have standards of evidence. We explain what they are. If you fail to meet them you have nothing. Telling us how great you think 40 or 1000 or ifinite witnesses are wont change our standards.

We give priority to the physical evidence. This disproves each and all of your 40 witnesses. Your evidence is not good enough.
Not good enough? But it's 40 eyewitnesses! That's the magic number! If it was 39, well, then, just maybe, but 40 seals the deal, man! Just because he lacks any other evidence is no reason to dismiss him out-of-hand!
Oh, wait, yes it is.
 
How does the use of photogrammetry prove a rounded chin as square and a square chin as rounded?????

It proves one can appear as the other because of three dimensional shadows.

You know, you should probably KNOW this is you are going to claim White is qualified to make claims of an expert. An expert would understand the criticisms and questions asked of White in the AARC... And just to make this clear, you know somebody already answered this question by illustrating how the visible shape of a chin can change depending on the location of a light source?



Never mind. Thanks for removing any doubt your assertions are ill researched and can safely be ignored. Have fun.
 
How does the use of photogrammetry prove a rounded chin as square and a square chin as rounded?????

Only one question mark at a time please or no dialogue.

Answer the question, Why do you find Joke "What is this photogrammetry of which you speak?" White's obvious (Logic 101) errors compelling?
 
Not good enough? But it's 40 eyewitnesses! That's the magic number! If it was 39, well, then, just maybe, but 40 seals the deal, man! Just because he lacks any other evidence is no reason to dismiss him out-of-hand!
Oh, wait, yes it is.

I mentioned before having WAY more than 40 witnesses who claim to have seen the Statue of Liberty dissapear. So it must be true! Hundreds of witnesses stated that the Titanic went under with out the hull snapping. The witness who claimed that was lauded as mistaken. Yet the ship is in two pieces.

We know why people might be mistaken about the direction of the bullet. We discussed at length that the direction JFK can be seen to move in the available films is counter intuitive, but as expected given the direction of ejecta and thus the direction of the bullet.

What ever rules Robert wants to live by, fine. But somewhere in the last hundred pluss pages it must have sunk in, after numerous explanations, that sceptics and critical thinkers validate an eye witness with better standards of evidence.

I have no idea why I am being so nice, but I keep in the plainest possible way explaining to Robert what it would take for me to agree with him, and why I can't agree with him on this. His "Slam Dunk" is all very impressive, but a bit meaningless if he is playing Basketball and I'm standing at the wicket with a cricket bat. With the best will in the world I am not going to care less about his slam dunk because I'm waiting for a googly.

Which would not matter in the slightest if he didn't keep claiming that myself and others have our heads in the sand. Yes, we are the closed minded intolerant fools who keep this discussion going by taking the time to put his assertions under the micro-scope and explain why they fail to convince us. We are so desperately doing a metephorical emu that we even offer advice on exactly what would change our minds.

We don't want to see the world any other way (but we explain in painful detail exactly how to make us do exactly that, because we are so unwilling we willingly ask to be convinced).
 
I have conducted by own experiment in attempting to prove or disprove...

In what professional, refereed, or peer-reviewed journal may I read about this experiment? What qualified peers reviewed your work? In other words, what assurance can you give us that your experiment was conducted according to valid methods and principles, and not just the clumsy work of yet another disaffected amateur?

Jack White has conducted numerous experiments on the backyard photo anomalies...

Jack White is not even remotely qualified to work in this field, and is roundly rejected by it as a buffoon, along with his "experiments" which are merely a layman's fumbling with no attention to proper controls or methods. He has no stature in the field. Please don't try to cite him as an expert.

...as has John Costella and others.

John Costella has no relevant experience or training either, and no stature in the field. He has tried to tell people that since he has a PhD in physics, he is qualified to act as soem sort of a forensic investigator. This is a common tactic among crackpots. They say that because they have some training and experience in one of the foundation sciences such as physics or chemistry, they are qualified to work in all the sciences that utilize them.

Specifically, Costella has tried to posture himself as a photographic analyst. I was contacted by a few people asking me to review Costella's claims regarding the Zapruder film. I found his claims to be so naive as to be laughable. Specifically his almost complete ignorance of the quantitative properties of parallax was enough to dismiss him as yet another crackpot. He told people that he couldn't possibly be wrong because he was an expert in physics and the Zapruder film "contradicted the laws of physics." Unfortunately no, physicists don't learn about projective geometry etc. in their coursework, especially those who work in theoretical or particle physics, as opposed to mechanics.

Costella tried this same bunkum on Apollo photography (my particular area of specialty) and naturally I handed him his head when he tried to declare certain Apollo 11 photographs fraudulent on the same "laws of physics" basis. Of course he puffed out his chest and declared he couldn't possibly be wrong because he had a PhD in physics and we had to respect his deep knowledge of that and all subjects. But of course I was able to present him not only with empirical evidence that his claims were wrong, but also a properly founded mathematical proof. His knowledge of "the laws of physics" were shown to be comically naive on these points. And to this day Costella has never acknowledge or addressed the refutation.

Clearly he has no desire to practice real science when it comes to the various conspiracy theories he dabbles in. He adopts the prima donna attitude of the theoretical physicist and does not respect those who, in addition to expertise in the theory, also have considerable training and experience in the specialized field. He shares certain properties in common in that respect with Jim Fetzer, who also makes Apollo hoax claims that he will not debate with the experts.

And that is what Science is all about -- Replication.

This is pure nonsense.

First, you are not scientist. You have no business trying to tell people who are scientists how to go about it. Please don't assume you know what you're talking about; it's annoying.

Second, you don't know the difference between empiricism and reproducibility. The scientific goal of reproducibility means to devise a method of investigation that is as deterministic as possible and accounts as deterministically as possible for all relevant variables. This is so that the results can be said unequivocally to derive only from factors that appear in the study, not from factors that cannot be controlled for such as personal judgment, pre-existing bias, or opinion.

Empiricism, on the other hand, is simply the method and practice of letting the universe display its properties rather that deducing or inferring them from more basic principles. Good science must have reproducibility, but good science does not require empirical methods.

Third, you miss entirely what science is "about" -- at least in the useful practice of it.

Science first requires knowledge and expertise among its practitioners. One cannot move ahead in a field without knowing what has gone behind. Most conspiracy-theorist pseudosciences do not have the relevant body of knowledge. They rely largely on intuition or hastily-Googled smatterings of fact. One cannot formulate proper models, experiments, or conclusions without a pre-existing knowledge of what to expect. Nearly all pseudoscientists lack this foundation. Hence their offerings tumble predictably into the elementary pitfalls that real scientists avoid by knowing the field. Jack White and John Costella know nothing about projective geometry. They do not have a proper foundation in the field, therefore their claims suffer from errors that a study of the appropriate foundation sciences would have led them to anticipate and correct.

Science also requires properly validated methods. Methodology is crucial in proper science. In the field of photographic analysis, there is more than a century and a half of scholarship, and from that has emerged a clear understanding of what will work -- and more importantly, what will not work. There simply is no excuse for not understanding and employing proper methods, for they are how science progresses rather than just standing still. Conspiracy-theorist pseudo-scientists just make things up as they go. Since they lack experience in the field, they clumsily try to derive methods from the ground up. And they never submit these ad hoc methods to any sort of validation or test. So while they purport to be able to use these methods to discern real photographs from fakes, they decline to show you whether they've been able to do so verifiably on any photographs other than the ones they're "analyzing" for their conspiracy theory. Such ad hoc methods are specifically eschewed by the ideal of reproducibility.

Finally, review is essential. While scientists are individually responsible for making progress ("publish or perish"), the field as a whole is responsible for ensuring that the work of individuals passes muster. Hence not only are there formal methods for review prior to publication, there is also informal review among peers where criticism and suggestion has a more profound effect. Conspiracy-theorist pseudo-scientists never submit their work for review in the field as a whole. If they let it out of the corral at all, it is only within the circle of fellow conspiracy theorists who are just as clueless as they. Pseudoscientists flee from any meaningful review of their claims by qualified people.

Please don't try to hold up Costella and White as examples of real science. They practice the antithesis of real science. And just because you say they have conducted "experiments" is not proof that they know what they are doing.

If you cannot replicate an observation then that observation is not worthy of belief.

Nonsense. This discounts science based on analytical and synthetic methods.

Very often in forensic science (which I practice professionally as part of my training and practice as an engineer) we cannot replicate exactly the effects of happenstance occurrences. There is an entire body of science in error analysis that lets us proceed with confidence nevertheless. White and Costella are entirely ignorant of it.

Further, your "expert" Costella was trained in a field that specifically eschews empiricism in favor of synthesis and analysis methods. His supposed emphasis on empirical methods over other methods, as a scientist, betrays the only science he can legitimately profess. This is likely because he is completely untrained and completely unskilled in the analytical methods that apply to photographic analysis and interpretation, and simply waves his diploma whenever he is asked about them. And it's also amusing that he completely ignores the empirical refutations of his own claims, on the grounds that "crude" empiricism is no match for his superior analytical skill. In other words, whether he's going to be an analytical scientist or an empirical scientist varies on what he thinks he can get away with. The fact is that he has neither the theoretical nor the empirical understanding of the field.

On the other hand the so-called panel of photo "experts" on the HSCA conducted no experiments at all, and thus replicated nothing.

White's experiments had no basis in valid science. Silly layman's attempts at empiricism do not constitute real science, nor do they dispute the real science demonstrated by others.
 
How does the use of photogrammetry prove a rounded chin as square and a square chin as rounded?????

By knowing approximately how many geometric solutions in the affine space can produce the observable effects in the projective space. This is especially salient when contour is being inferred from illumination.
 
So, instead of discussing White's specific evidence anomalies of the backyard photos, you attack the man. Thus, you betray yourself as just another ad hominem attacker with no knowledge or credibility of the subject at hand (With all due respect to your own auto-biographical puffery.

No, he cited his website with specifics of the problems with White's photographic analysis.

You ignored it entirely.
 
By knowing approximately how many geometric solutions in the affine space can produce the observable effects in the projective space. This is especially salient when contour is being inferred from illumination.
You use your tongue purtier'n a Kansas City hooker! [/Blazing Saddles]
 
Square versus rounded. This is like a Sesame Street lesson.


Aha. So you did eyeball it and didn't like the evidence. That's exactly what I thought you'd say.

Sorry, eyeballing a photograph and saying "it looks wrong to me" isn't sufficient here.

Yes, that's about what I'd expect from somebody on sesame street. But not from a legit photographic analysis.

Do you have any legit evidence or should I just counter your layman's opinion with my own layman's opinion? The photos looks fine to me.

Ball in your court.

You can tell me I'm wrong, in which case I'll say "no, you are," or you can cite some legitimate photographic analysis by someone who actually is an expert and studied the first generation materials and concluded they were falsified.

Which is it going to be, Robert?
 
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Why don't you begin with frame 313 and go to about 330. There you will see what appears to be a a blob of paint on the side of K's head, which alternately moves around from one location to another. Funny, but on one Z film DVD special, Zapruder's associate, Irwin Hirsch, describes the very first viewing of the Z film at which he was present. He said the film was like nothing he has seen since in the various copies and renditions. He said the film was 'needle sharp" and 'locked in focus" in "beautiful color." And when it came to the head shot, you could see it in detail. Sounds to me very much unlike viewing a blob of paint.


Maybe because what you're seeing is copies of the original, whereas Hirsch saw the original before it was sold to Time-Life?

You do know that copies are neither as clear, nor as rich in color as the original, right?

It sounds like you don't know that.

The "blob of paint" you are seeing happens to be JFK's extruded brain and the open flap that is visible on some autopsy photos. But since it looks like a blob of paint, why, that's what it is. Well, it looks like JFK's extruded brain and the open flap of skull to me. I can see at least as good as you.

Ball in your court, Robert.

Hank
 
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As per usual, too many questions. No specificity. I've already given two examples of Z film alteration.


Here's the specificity you ask for now.
Curious, though, the first five times I made these specific points, you dodged them every time.

Lol. Doug Horne is a garden-variety conspiracy theorist, and you can see it in full bloom above.

In the space of a little more than one paragraph:

1) He denigrates Kodak's own expert's expertise (calling him a "self-taught home movie expert")*;

2) He pits his own opinion (Horne's) against that of the expert's as if they are equal, but of course they are not;

3) He engages in circular reasoning; using the conclusion (the film was altered and the conspirators were really good at faking stuff!) to rule out the evidence it wasn't (for example, the film markings are consistent with authenticity);

4) He rules out the affadavits signed by the film-developing personnel in Zapruder's presence for the same reason (below);

5) He proclaims the affadavit paper trail provided by Zapruder to be suspicious precisely because it doesn't allow him to question it (calling it 'almost too good' below), so he questions it for that reason (!);

6) And finally, he finds two men 35 years AFTER THE FACT to state they REMEMBER something different (below). They have no documents, simply a 35-year old memory. He uses the memory to discard everything else that is documented.

Whoop. This is typical garden-variety Conspiracy Logic 101. And it is nonsense. Obviously.




Robert, I know none of this convinces you that anything is wrong.
But it should at least start you wondering where your beliefs went off the tracks.
The stuff you cite as evidence is NOT evidence.
It doesn't come close to evidence.
It is nonsense, pure and simple.
But you find it convincing. And think it should convince us.
Uh, no.

___________

* Roland Zavada is THE recognized industry expert (and Kodak's own internal expert) on 8mm film.
Here's a brief resume:
http://www.jfk-info.com/zavadabi.htm
 
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So, instead of discussing White's specific evidence anomalies of the backyard photos, you attack the man. Thus, you betray yourself as just another ad hominem attacker with no knowledge or credibility of the subject at hand (With all due respect to your own auto-biographical puffery.

No, in typical conspiracy-theory fashion you want to skip over the discussion of expertise and go right to the claims themselves. White's claims do not make him an expert. White's claims are addressable evidence only when made by an expert, because they require the judgment of someone expert in the field. The merit of the claim cannot be divorced from the foundation of the analysis. Simply because the analysis involves a real-world object such as a photograph does not mean the claims made about it have objective merit that derives from the objective mere-existence of the disputed object.

White himself has stipulated to this need for expertise, claiming to be just such an expert. Unlike you, White does not suggest that the "anomalies" stand by themselves and that any layman can bring this evidence forward -- i.e., that the claims can stand independently of the expertise that generated and supports them. He claims that only he, and expert photographic analyst, is able to discover and properly understand this evidence.

I suspect you already know that White is not recognized as an expert outside his little circle of conspiracy fanatics, so now you desperately try to shift the discussion away from the question of his expertise and expect us to presume (along with you) that he really is an expert. You want to draw attention away from the very discussion that White hoped to have! He styles himself as "the most dangerous photographic analyst to the government" that there is. White himself is very much about his professed ability (his and his alone) to discover "anomalies" in photographs of government-related events.

No, you don't get to do this tap-dance. White claims to be an expert. You claimed White is an expert. Both of you claim that this professed expertise is the basis on which lies the strength of White's claims that involve photographs. That clearly opens the door to a discussion of his expertise. You may not like it, but this is the discussion you ordered up, so live with it. And no, it is not ad hominem to investigate the qualifications someone has claimed to have them and to have based his conclusions on them.

I pointed out that White is not respected in the field. This is not an ad homimen attack, it is a simple statement of fact. One cannot claim to be an expert while simultaneously being rejected by others who have demonstrable expertise. Stature in the field is a measure of expertise. If other people who are as smart as you claim to be, and who have demonstrated their smarts, don't think you pass muster, then this is inimical to a claim of expertise. You don't get to claim everyone else is misguided and that you are the only true expert. That's the charlatan's gambit.

I showed clear evidence that White makes elementary errors in photographic analysis. That is only one of several examples I can cite. Showing that someone commits repeated, egregious error undermines that person's claims to expertise. It is not an ad hominem attack to show that a person clearly lacks specific skills that he has claimed to have and that he says are important to his findings. The "crop-and-resize" trick has been used repeatedly by him to manufacture his "anomalies."

Finally I gave evidence that White overstates his claims. Experts ask non-experts for trust in the form of respecting the conclusions they draw. We expect an expert therefore not to misrepresent or exaggerate. When I find evidence that a purported expert has committed an untrustworthy act in the course of presenting his case, it undermines his credibility as an expert. We expect our experts to report the facts dispassionately, not to skew things in their favor. It is not ad hominem to show that an alleged expert has untrustworthily reported his work. It shows that something other than expertise is coloring his interpretation and judgment.

I have conducted a proper examination of White's claims to expertise according to the customary criteria, such as how a court would voir dire an expert. According to those criteria, White is not an expert. Please some whining about people "attacking" him. If he didn't want his expertise judged, he probably shouldn't have claimed to have any. Now let's turn to who really engages in attack-oriented argumentation.

It is always amusing to see how rapidly conspiracy-mongers want to push their critics onto the "just another ad hominem attacker" pile. White himself tries to shame critics into addressing his claims by labeling them "provocateurs," even though he himself freely admits to "provoking" reactions with his absurd claims against various government entities. I think it's hilarious, Robert, that you dismiss me without knowing the first thing about me or my work. What a sad knee-jerk reaction. I've been told to expect as much from you.

Want to know what your hero did when my criticism of his Apollo photographs first emerged? First he tried to sue me because he thought I had "stolen" that photo from his secret web forums where he and all his whacko sychophants hang out. But of course I had obtained it entirely legally from a source White himself had told could "distribute them as you see fit." He didn't try to claim he was right. He didn't try to address the various points I brought up. No, his first thought was retribution for letting his cat out of the bag.

Then when his efforts to silence me had failed, he called me an "ignorant *******" and told the world he was safe ignoring me because I was just another "provocateur" who couldn't appreciate his special genius.

Defend that.

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Edited for Rule 10. Do not bypass the autocensor.
 
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40 plus consistent eye witness observations is Slam Dunk evidence.

Nonsense.

I have to deal with eyewitness testimony all the time in forensic engineering. It is the least reliable of all the kinds of evidence I can use. Eyewitnesses will minimize in order to avoid possible blame. They will exaggerate in order to be associated with a noteworthy event. They will change their story to conform to what they believe others' recollections to have been. They will consciously or unconsciously invent detail they believe they should, as eyewitnesses, know but cannot immediately recall.

In crash investigations etc. we have to take special pains to vet eyewitness testimony. Every couple of years in Virginia the NTSB and the FBI together offer joint training in taking eyewitness testimony that doesn't suck. The gorilla guys were there one year.
 
Yep, it's "purtier than a twenty dollar whore". That made me think of the scene in Dr. Strangelove when Pickens (as B-52 commander Major Kong) inventories their survival kits, then says to his co-pilot "Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff." The city he said while filming was Dallas, but after the JFK assassination they had Slim overdub it with Vegas.
 
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