The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy

[Mudcat]

ETA Also if there is a nuclear war in the Middle east Damascus could be a heap of ruins in less than a second.

...Perhaps we have a different definition of 'in ruins', they rebuilt Nagasaki and Hiroshima (you might remember them as those two cities we took out with nuclear weapons) and they currently have a population of 446,007 (Nagasaki) and 1,173,980 (Hiroshima), and seem to be doing quite well.

 

[amb]

The people of Corpus Christi (Texas), San Salvador (El Salvador), Christchurch (New Zealand) and Salvador (Brazil) would like a word with you.

Ah yes, after christ, but none named "Jesus". Christ meant the Anointed one, not a surname.

 

[Akhenaten]

Ah yes, after christ, but none named "Jesus". Christ meant the Anointed one, not a surname.

If you wish to argue that these cities are named after someone other than Jesus Christ then go right ahead.

The argument that a city being named after Alexander (and in fact there are far more than one) is evidence for his existence is pretty silly anyway, when you think about it.

Is Athens evidence for the existence of Athena? How about Apollo Bay? The Atlas Mountains? Venus?


In any case, as kmortis has pointed out, this is off topic. If you want to pursue it, you're on your own.

 

[Mudcat]

If you wish to argue that these cities are named after someone other than Jesus Christ then go right ahead.

The argument that a city being named after Alexander (and in fact there are far more than one) is evidence for his existence is pretty silly anyway, when you think about it.

Is Athens evidence for the existence of Athena? How about Apollo Bay? The Atlas Mountains? Venus?


In any case, as kmortis has pointed out, this is off topic. If you want to pursue it, you're on your own.

Agreed. The whole line of reasoning is a stupid one, without a doubt, and has nothing at all to do with the thread.

DOC, once again, this thread is about biblical prophecies. Mind addressing the concerns with them? Sometime soon if you'd be so kind.

 

[dafydd]

Doc?

 

[DOC]

Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 10 to the20th people. That's a lot Doc, 1000000000000000000000 human beings. Where is god going to fit them all in on the Earth?...

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.

Matthew.16:28

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."...

And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

I'll try to get to the others as time permits.

 

[tsig]

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.



And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

I'll try to get to the others as time permits.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Somehow we seem to have missed all this.

 

[kmortis]

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.



And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

I'll try to get to the others as time permits.

Yeah...except that given the context of the, uh, text it doesn't mean his resurrection. Rather his "second coming".

16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Putting verse 28 back into the context with verse 27, it's obvious that he's not meaning his resurrection. None of the various accounts of that have Christ coming "in the glory of his Father with his angels", that's more of a description of a celestial conqueror.

Ok, that's my argument. I'm off again fo more important matters - counting the number of unicorns who are frolicking on the head of a pin.

 

[Sun Countess]

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.

Highlighted the relevant portion. How do you know what he "most likely" meant? How do you know which portions of the bible should be taken literally, and which are meant to be figurative? When certain prophecies are already vague, I can see how it would be tempting for an apologist to stretch the meaning into something figurative that kinda sorta fits the prophecy if you squint your eyes just so. But I personally think it's pretty disingenuous to do so when actual numbers are given.

And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

Can you explain what this Kingdom is? Is it a literal kingdom or a figurative one? I would love to see some sort of evidence that Jesus has a kingdom somewhere.

 

[Christian Klippel]

I always find it funny how stuff from the bible can be interchangeably "fact", "parable" or "figure of speech", the sole factor determining that being the corner in which the bible-thumper put himself into while trying to make attempts at an argument.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[joobz]

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.

How do we know that is figurative?
Let's not forget that half of the christian world (Catholics) believe that the communion is ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ.

When people are in doubt about the literal nature of something so basic as communion, how can we believe ANYTHING in the bible is obviously literal or figurative?

And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

This is a failed point. As has been pointed out, you are ignoring the context of the phrase to justify your argument.


So far, in order to claim fulfilled prophecies you have had to:
1.) Define one line as Figurative.
2.) Take another line out of context.

Who would be convinced by such shifty dealings?

 

[Craig B]

Highlighted the relevant portion. How do you know what he "most likely" meant? How do you know which portions of the bible should be taken literally, and which are meant to be figurative?

Jesus' seven and seventy stuff is presumably taken from the Song of Lamech

Genesis 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

here applying these sorts of numbers not to vengeance, but to forgiveness. Another example of words attributed to Jesus having been culled from OT sources. Although of course if Jesus existed, he might well have filled his speech with locutions derived from that source.

 

[kmortis]

How do we know that is figurative?
Let's not forget that half of the christian world (Catholics) believe that the communion is ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ.

When people are in doubt about the literal nature of something so basic as communion, how can we believe ANYTHING in the bible is obviously literal or figurative?




This is a failed point. As has been pointed out, you are ignoring the context of the phrase to justify your argument.


So far, in order to claim fulfilled prophecies you have had to:
1.) Define one line as Figurative.
2.) Take another line out of context.

Who would be convinced by such shifty dealings?

I'm willing to let DOC slide on the 7 & 70 stuff. It's part of the cultural aaspect where certain numbers take on cultural significance. 7 is important in Jewish culture, as are a few other numbers. One of those areas where you have to know a bit about the culture you're reading to fully understand it.

Besides, I'm still waiting to find out how Damascus was destroyed.

 

[dafydd]

I'm willing to let DOC slide on the 7 & 70 stuff. It's part of the cultural aaspect where certain numbers take on cultural significance. 7 is important in Jewish culture, as are a few other numbers. One of those areas where you have to know a bit about the culture you're reading to fully understand it.

Besides, I'm still waiting to find out how Damascus was destroyed.

Doc is saying that one day it will be rubble. That is true, My name is Ozymandias and all that. Not the same thing as a prophesy coming true. I'm waiting to hear when the Canaanite language will be restarted so it can be spoken in Egypt.

 

[kmortis]

Doc is saying that one day it will be rubble. That is true, My name is Ozymandias and all that. Not the same thing as a prophesy coming true. I'm waiting to hear when the Canaanite language will be restarted so it can be spoken in Egypt.

Right, so where is this mah-ve-lous prophecy at? Isn't that what we're supposed to be discussing?

 

[TimCallahan]

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.



And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

I'll try to get to the others as time permits.

Let's put Mt. 16:28 back into its context, quoting along with the verse that precedes it (Mt. 16:27, 28):

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Verse 27 (in boldface) clearly refers to the end of the world and the last judgment with the Son of man coming with his angels in the glory of God the Father and repaying every man for his actions. The only way one can interpret verse 28 as referring to the beginnings of the Christian church is to ignore the context of verse 27. Christian apologist often do this by saying that verse 27 and 28 really don't have any relation to each other, which is absurd.

Furthermore, the gospels and the Pauline epistles are filled with predictions of the imminent end of the world. This is particularly true of what is variously referred to as the "little apocalypse" and the "Olivet discourse," where Jesus,after saying that the sun and moon will be darkened, the stars will fall from heaven, the powers of the earth shaken, etc., says (Mt. 24:34):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

The best fundamentalist apologists can come up with as a defense here is to assert that the word translated as "generation," genaea, was a scribal error: It should hve read genos, meaning "race" or "people." In other words, the Jewish people will not pass away before these things rake place. Agin, this is absurd. In order to accept that view we have to view the transmission of the gospels as error-prone, which flies in the face of fundamentalist assertions that it is inerrant. Also, in the context of the verse, which is one of time, "generation" - what's actually written in the text - makes more sense than "race."

 

[Brainache]

Let's put Mt. 16:28 back into its context, quoting along with the verse that precedes it (Mt. 16:27, 28):

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.

Verse 27 (in boldface) clearly refers to the end of the world and the last judgment with the Son of man coming with his angels in the glory of God the Father and repaying every man for his actions. The only way one can interpret verse 28 as referring to the beginnings of the Christian church is to ignore the context of verse 27. Christian apologist often do this by saying that verse 27 and 28 really don't have any relation to each other, which is absurd.

Furthermore, the gospels and the Pauline epistles are filled with predictions of the imminent end of the world. This is particularly true of what is variously referred to as the "little apocalypse" and the "Olivet discourse," where Jesus,after saying that the sun and moon will be darkened, the stars will fall from heaven, the powers of the earth shaken, etc., says (Mt. 24:34):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

The best fundamentalist apologists can come up with as a defense here is to assert that the word translated as "generation," genaea, was a scribal error: It should hve read genos, meaning "race" or "people." In other words, the Jewish people will not pass away before these things rake place. Agin, this is absurd. In order to accept that view we have to view the transmission of the gospels as error-prone, which flies in the face of fundamentalist assertions that it is inerrant. Also, in the context of the verse, which is one of time, "generation" - what's actually written in the text - makes more sense than "race."

What I find amusing is that for a long time in popular culture the image of a bearded man holding a sign saying "Repent! The end is nigh!" has been the archetype of a crazy person.

And yet we still get people following "End Times" preachers all over the place.

 

[Akhenaten]

Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

Here God tells Isaac that his descendents (Hebrews) will be as numerous as the stars. Considering the number of stars there are in the universe, that would have to be on the order of 10 to the20th people. That's a lot Doc, 1000000000000000000000 human beings. Where is god going to fit them all in on the Earth?...

Figure of speech, even Christ used figure of speech when Peter asked him shall I forgive my brothers and sisters 7 times, and Christ said forgive them 7 times 70 times. He most likely didn't literally mean 490 times but said that for effect.

Genesis 6:3

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years​

Figure of speech, DOC?

1 Samuel 25:42

And Abigail hasted, and arose and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that went after her; and she went after the messengers of David, and became his wife.​

Figure of speech, DOC?

Matthew 1:17

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.​

Three times fourteen? Why that's . . . OMG!!!​

Figure of speech, DOC?

Matthew 26:15

And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.​

Figure of speech, DOC?

Matthew 26:34

Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.​

Figure of speech, DOC?

Revelation 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is six hundred three score and six.​

Figure of speech, DOC?

Matthew.16:28

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."...

And some didn't taste death until they saw Christ resurrected and thus witnessed the beginning of the Kingdom. Christ on the cross said "It is finished". Given the context of his subsequent resurrection one could easily infer that the kingdom began with his Resurrection.

There was no resurrection, DOC. It's just a figure of speech.

I'll try to get to the others as time permits.

You haven't even 'got to' this one yet.

 

[Akhenaten]

What I find amusing is that for a long time in popular culture the image of a bearded man holding a sign saying "Repent! The end is nigh!" has been the archetype of a crazy person.

And yet we still get people following "End Times" preachers all over the place.

Ironicles the Fallacious​

 

[DOC]

Genesis 6:3

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years​

Figure of speech, DOC?[

It is an accurate statement according to this list:

http://listverse.com/2010/02/07/top-10-oldest-people-ever/

Read the age of the oldest man on the list. He is number 2.