Derren Brown's screaming stooges

He said he didn't use any actors. He used an actor.
Disagree .You have no evidence. An actor appeared on his show and too part in a trick. Thats it. EVerything else is your conspiracy theory.
For the evidence, go back a few pages to where I posted the relevant video and web page.
Thats not evidence of employment or stooging.Thats evidence of participation.
That's one example of him lying.
Disagree. No proof.If she wasnt acting he didnt lie.

For numerous others, go look back through this thread.
If your so sure of his lies list the posts number,it is YOUR CLAIM after all. Should I find your lies while im looking? And nonsense posts suchs as:
"He's nothing like John Edward"
"Hes every bit as bad as John Edward" :D

I'm not jumping through hoops to dig up and re-post every bit of evidence that anyone ever presented, every time you request it.

Ergo "I cant back up my weak position". I know.
 
John Albert I've read the entire page of the link you gave,cannot find any proof Derren has lied. No suprise.
 
Sorry, I don't get you here. Anytime a magician does a trick, there will be some gullible people thinking they're actually using real magic. In DB's case, I'd agree that people being truly fooled are often more sophisticated than for the average magician. So for example, the nonsense about the 'subliminal advertising' method was actually retold as fact by a highly educated colleague of mine with a PhD and I would say generally good critical thinking skills. You might think this is 'dishonest' or 'disingenuous' but I would disagree. I think it just shows that DB is more sophisticated than most magicians, thereby being able to genuinely fool people who would not be fooled by your average magician.


I totally agree, so long as the show is presented at face value as a magic show.

Where I think Derren Brown crosses the line is when he presents his material as educational in nature, without a disclaimer saying it's a magic performance intended purely for entertainment. He did exactly that in his show The Experiments.



Again, magic is about fooling people. If someone is successful at that, to me that means they are skilled magicians. That is not to say there are not ethical standards, for example it would be highly unethical to fool people into believing things that are materially detrimental, for example by making people believe that it's possible to communicate with the dead or similar.


How about publicly provoking the false belief that it's possible to use hypnotism to "program" somebody to commit murder without their own intent or knowledge?

How about promoting the idea that you can hypnotize a store clerk into accepting blank paper as cash, or befuddle a complete stranger on the street into handing over all their belongings?

How about mimicking the techniques of NLP charlatans to present the false appearance that their "hypnosis" methods are effective in real life?

Is it not "highly unethical" to promote ideas like that?


But giving people a false idea of how a show was produced? Sorry, that's not unethical. It may or may not be interesting, but if you're fooling people who would not normally be easily fooled then that shows you're skilled in your art, nothing else.


I think that, like most stage hypnotism acts, what Derren Brown is doing only succeeds as entertainment if the audience is successfully fooled into thinking his proclaimed "powers" are real. If the audience realizes that there's no actual "hypnosis" going on, then the realization of what's really going on is so extremely lame that it fails as entertainment as well.


I think that you are being disingenuous here by using the word 'employing'. Yes, I know that can mean 'making use of' rather than actually paying someone a salary, but you're certainly hinting in a direction which is totally unproven.


I am not being disingenuous, because I mean both things. Because she's a professional, card-carrying actress, she's not going to appear on a national TV show without a contract.


I agree but I'm sorry, I can't fault a magician for being deceptive. How could anyone be a magician without being deceptive?


Come on, man, you know that's not what I'm saying.


Sorry, I don't know the details of the actors union rules, but it seems very unlikely to me that they would forbid members to volunteer in magic shows.


For a part on a nationally broadcast TV show? I'd be surprised if they didn't.
 
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Where I think Derren Brown crosses the line is when he presents his material as educational in nature, without a disclaimer saying it's a magic performance intended purely for entertainment. He did exactly that in his show The Experiments.
You appear to be wrong. This is how it is described at the official website. And this is the entire description, so I'm not just quoting favourably here:
Channel 4 said:
A four-part series featuring an inventive and jaw-dropping mixture of stunts, magic, illusion, suggestion and thought-provoking entertainment, combined with psychological insight

How about publicly provoking the false belief that it's possible to use hypnotism to "program" somebody into committing murder without their own intent or knowledge?

How about promoting the idea that you can hypnotize a store clerk into accepting blank paper as cash or a complete stranger on the street into handing over all their belongings?
I don't see a problem with these. Anyone trying to actually do this clearly has dishonest intentions and deserves the disappointment and failure when it doesn't actually work.

How about mimicking the techniques of NLP charlatans to present the false appearance that their "hypnosis" methods are effective in real life?
I already brought up NLP and I believe DB has changed his presentation as a result of criticism on this issue.

I think unlike most stage magic, what Derren Brown is doing only succeeds as entertainment if the audience is successfully fooled into thinking his proclaimed "powers" are real. If the audience realizes that there's no actual "hypnosis" going on, then the realization of what's really going on is so extremely lame that it fails as entertainment as well.
I fail to see that it would be worse in this regard than any other hypnotism show. And I disagree that you have to believe that it's real to enjoy it. It's also about creating unusual situations, the social experiment bit.

I am not being disingenuous, because I mean both things. Because she's a professional, card-carrying actress, she's not going to appear on a national TV show without a contract.
So you believe actors never have time off? I think you're just plain wrong here and since you're making the claim that she absolutely would not, could you please back that assertion up with something other than your intuition?

I've been on a number of TV shows and I can tell you right away that people don't normally get paid just for participating. Of course if you're actually working for them it's a different matter but again you have given absolutely no evidence that this woman worked for DB. TV production companies typically assume that everyone's even willing to pay their own expenses just to be on TV and mostly they are right. I've had travel and hotel covered by public service once but for the commercial channels they never offered that (I'm sure it's of course very different for a coveted star with attraction power, but for a John Smith type of person such as me they'll just ask someone else).
 
That's not a non-sequitur. It's a reply to your own nonsensical post:



Such a thing is not even possible, and anyway, nobody else has even posited a single alternate plausible explanation for consideration.

Nonsensical? I'll wager few people will agree with you on that. I think the word you're looking for is "awkward." I'm asking questions you have no answer to, so you're pretending they don't make sense. A typical woo tactic, I'm not sure why you think it will work any better for you.

Oh, and while we're throwing around accusations of ignoring other people, I'll make one I can substantiate: you still havn't answered my two questions of "An alternate explanation for what?" and "Why do we need to provide one?"
 
Whilst I'm still not convinced about the actress being a stooge or not (I think neither side has presented much in the way of supporting evidence for their respective positions). It did occur to me that hiring an actress and passing her off as a non-actress would be the riskiest of strategies.
Simply because there is a real risk that her next 'job' is going to put her back on telly in a character role where she will get recognised as "that non-acting girl who did the voodoo doll trick".

If I were looking for a stooge, I would choose a magician for the part. Because as a rule they STFU about methods and secrets and not many of them get famous and recognisable.

Just my latest thoughts about it.
 
If I were looking for a stooge, I would choose a magician for the part. Because as a rule they STFU about methods and secrets and not many of them get famous and recognisable.

Just my latest thoughts about it.

Or a member of the production team.
John Albert
I am not being disingenuous, because I mean both things. Because she's a professional, card-carrying actress, she's not going to appear on a national TV show without a contract.

John Albert do you think Stephen Fry,Simon Pegg,Matt Lucas all card carrying professional members of an actors union also had a contract to appear on Derren Brown's shows?
 
But he isn't a standard stage magician. In this context, he's not a stage magician but a TV magician. DB may have his own position on TV magic but he seems to be doing pretty well with it I would say. And this is anyway a different subject than whether or not he ever used stooges.

I think that DB has sometimes crossed the line or at least come close to it. For example, it appeared for a while that he was endorsing NLP which is something that dishonest people are actually peddling as the real deal to people who don't know better. But I believe DB has acknowledged criticism in the past and steered away from such things.

I think that 'the point' of DB is to entertain and I think that's a good thing and worthwhile in itself. But within the field of skepticism I believe 'the point' of magicians is not just to expose frauds (which you agree DB has done) but also to show people that they can be fooled, including people who are intelligent and who employ critical thinking.

Maybe we disagree because you feel that this is not valid if the spectator leaves the show with incorrect ideas of exactly how he or she was fooled. I don't think that's the case and I'm willing to forgive DB if some people never realise how duped they have been, because it surely shows many other people that if a self-confessed trickster like DB can achieve an effect, then so can people who are making money by claiming similar effects to be the real deal.
Someone may think she's a skeptic because she thinks she can figure out how the tricksters do their tricks and she would not be fooled. But she would be a poor skeptic. To become a better skeptic, she'd be helped by a magician showing her that in fact she can also be fooled.

I think it's also brilliant magic and brilliant skepticism. The absurdity of the claims don't make them immoral. That line depends on the consequences of the false beliefs the magician creates. DB has I believe crossed the line a few times but overall I think he's a great positive for skepticism.

As a comparison, stage magicians typically don't reveal their tricks. The audience very often walks away from the performance thinking they have an idea of how the trick was done, which is often very far from the truth (such as believing some extremely complicated technology must have been developed). We don't blame these magicians because the false beliefs created are mostly harmless. DB in my mind is testing the limits a bit more but that also makes him more interesting, although some of the recent shows have not been so interesting in their own right I would say, but that's a different matter.

DB is a stage and TV magician but the differentiation is irrelevant. I am using that phrase to distinguish him from someone who may use psychological techniques, leaving asside the issue of feasibility. Most of DB's fans believe that DB uses techniques that other magicians do not, and this has been in a large part responsible for his success. The fact is, the evidence suggests this is not the case and the psychological aspect is just a gimmick.

I see this as being damaging for true scepticism because in DB we have a sceptic who does not tell the truth. That seems naive in talking about the methods of a magician but it isn't. There is a big difference between a person not revealing their methods and a person misrepresenting their methods. For example, when Randi replicated Geller's spoon trick he didn't claim that he had hypnotised the audience into seeing something that was not there. If he had have done this then his replication would have been worthless as it would have replaced one woo-woo explanation with another. Of course Randi actually revealed his method but even if he hadn't, a statement saying that he had used a standard magician's trick would have been perfectly acceptable. If a woo buster asks us to believe in woo then I see them as little different to the ones they are trying to expose.

In terms of whether you find DB entertaining, of course that's up to you. It's a subjective choice so it's not a case of me being right and you wrong or vice-versa. However, my thinking about it is very much different to yours.

If a stage magician cuts a woman in half then that's entertaining to me because it's fun to speculate on how he might have done it. There is no solution such as 'he cheated' because it makes no sense. Clearly he didn't cut the woman in half but the wonder comes from the illusion and the difficulty in providing any explanation that fits.

Consider now DB who tells a woman he never met before the contents of her dream the night before, in detail, along with numerous other items of very specific information. Unlike the sawing-the-woman-in-half the choices are clear

1) He is psychic
2) He obtained the information through psychology and watching the woman's face
3) He used some type of mind control to make her say what he wanted
4) He obtained the information through normal means before or during the show

We can discount 1, 2 and 3 because they are impossible and that leaves us with 4. There is no mystery. I don't find any entertainment value in someone repeating some memorised information. I could do that trick, so could you, so could anyone, so where's the fun?

When that expands to an entire show the fun factor is further reduced because at least the stage shows include elements that cannot be explained in this way. Take the murder at the country house. Again, the choices are clear: DB possesses some type of paranormal ability or the subject was playing along or had been told what to do. There is no other reasonable conclusion. The former is not true and the latter, whilst true, is not interesting.

As I say, the entertainment aspect is subjective, but that's my take on it.
 
DB is a stage and TV magician but the differentiation is irrelevant. I am using that phrase to distinguish him from someone who may use psychological techniques, leaving asside the issue of feasibility. Most of DB's fans believe that DB uses techniques that other magicians do not, and this has been in a large part responsible for his success. The fact is, the evidence suggests this is not the case and the psychological aspect is just a gimmick.

I see this as being damaging for true scepticism because in DB we have a sceptic who does not tell the truth. That seems naive in talking about the methods of a magician but it isn't. There is a big difference between a person not revealing their methods and a person misrepresenting their methods. For example, when Randi replicated Geller's spoon trick he didn't claim that he had hypnotised the audience into seeing something that was not there. If he had have done this then his replication would have been worthless as it would have replaced one woo-woo explanation with another. Of course Randi actually revealed his method but even if he hadn't, a statement saying that he had used a standard magician's trick would have been perfectly acceptable. If a woo buster asks us to believe in woo then I see them as little different to the ones they are trying to expose.

In terms of whether you find DB entertaining, of course that's up to you. It's a subjective choice so it's not a case of me being right and you wrong or vice-versa. However, my thinking about it is very much different to yours.

If a stage magician cuts a woman in half then that's entertaining to me because it's fun to speculate on how he might have done it. There is no solution such as 'he cheated' because it makes no sense. Clearly he didn't cut the woman in half but the wonder comes from the illusion and the difficulty in providing any explanation that fits.

Consider now DB who tells a woman he never met before the contents of her dream the night before, in detail, along with numerous other items of very specific information. Unlike the sawing-the-woman-in-half the choices are clear

1) He is psychic
2) He obtained the information through psychology and watching the woman's face
3) He used some type of mind control to make her say what he wanted
4) He obtained the information through normal means before or during the show

We can discount 1, 2 and 3 because they are impossible and that leaves us with 4. There is no mystery. I don't find any entertainment value in someone repeating some memorised information. I could do that trick, so could you, so could anyone, so where's the fun?

When that expands to an entire show the fun factor is further reduced because at least the stage shows include elements that cannot be explained in this way. Take the murder at the country house. Again, the choices are clear: DB possesses some type of paranormal ability or the subject was playing along or had been told what to do. There is no other reasonable conclusion. The former is not true and the latter, whilst true, is not interesting.

As I say, the entertainment aspect is subjective, but that's my take on it.

the latter is an insult to viewers intelligence,

which is why I started this thread in the first place.
 
One more thing about the seance,
why has he chosen attractive young girls for the participants?
If they were fat middle-aged ones, would it be as interesting?
 
Um, what happened to
OK then,
as I cannot convince people that there is such a thing as real hypnotism, and a real hypnotic trance, but DB is faking it with his stooges I'm picking my ball up and going home.
? If you can't even tell the truth about yourself, I don't see how we can take anything else you say seriously.
 
FWIW, I've just emailed Equity asking them whether Rodriguez would have been allowed to participate in the show without being paid as an actor (in generalities, I didn't specifically name her or Brown or anything). I'll update you all if and when I get a reply.
 
4) He obtained the information through normal means before or during the show

We can discount 1, 2 and 3 because they are impossible and that leaves us with 4. There is no mystery. I don't find any entertainment value in someone repeating some memorised information. I could do that trick, so could you, so could anyone, so where's the fun?

Guess what Santa Claus doesnt come down the chimney either. Regarding point 4 thats where showmanship comes in.Luckily most of his fans dont think like you.
 
So you believe actors never have time off? I think you're just plain wrong here and since you're making the claim that she absolutely would not, could you please back that assertion up with something other than your intuition?


I never said "actors never have time off." Quit with the strawmen.

My point is that they don't spend their "time off" appearing on professional telecasts that the union specifies they're supposed to have a paid contract for, completely pro bono for no good reason. It's not like appearing on Derren Brown's show is some kind of charity work.


I've been on a number of TV shows and I can tell you right away that people don't normally get paid just for participating. Of course if you're actually working for them it's a different matter but again you have given absolutely no evidence that this woman worked for DB.


Yeah, non-professional performers don't get paid because they're not in the SAG. The main thing about being in an actor's union is that they have to pay you for appearances on TV, in movies, on stage, etc.


I've had travel and hotel covered by public service once but for the commercial channels they never offered that (I'm sure it's of course very different for a coveted star with attraction power, but for a John Smith type of person such as me they'll just ask someone else).


They might feed you, and will even fly you in and put you up in a hotel in rare circumstances (if you're a special guest of some sort), but regular schmoes generally don't get paid for TV appearances except in rare circumstances. The production company and TV network that airs the show can get into all kinds of crap with the union—possibly even boycotted—for doing that.

We're not talking about an amateur cable access show, or even an amateur appearing on a professional TV show. It's totally different for a card-carrying member of the Screen Actor's Guild card on a professional television shoot. If you're a professional working in show business, you join the union and you get paid for performances. That's how it works. You don't need to have "star power" to get paid for appearances. If a reality TV show is looking for some "John Smith type of person" whom they don't have to pay, they won't use a professional actress who's a member of the actors' union.

I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect the UK acting union is essentially the same as the Screen Actor's Guild in that regard. There's a reason they have these unions, to create a clear demarcation between amateurs and the people working professionally so that the professionals can be guaranteed pay and benefits.

Why do you find this so difficult to believe? It sounds to me like you're actively looking for any possible excuse that might allow you to deny that Derren Brown lied (which he clearly did, by saying he does not use any actors in the show). Even if she was not paid, she's still an actress performing on his show in front of an array of TV cameras and production people, so it's still a lie.
 
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Spent time browsing the Experiments thread and John Albert is stooge obsessed.He claimed at one point Derren Brown could throw a frisbee into a packed theatre audience to reach a stooge !
 
Guess what Santa Claus doesnt come down the chimney either. Regarding point 4 thats where showmanship comes in.Luckily most of his fans dont think like you.

Why 'luckily'? What specifically is lucky about people not thinking like I do? DB is a great showman and I've already acknowledged that. Do you have a point you'd like to make or is this all we get?
 
I already brought up NLP and I believe DB has changed his presentation as a result of criticism on this issue.


He hasn't. He still performs lots of tricks that mimic those of the NLPers, like the "interrupted handshake" bit. You can see him doing all that same stuff in The Experiments.
 
How about publicly provoking the false belief that it's possible to use hypnotism to "program" somebody to commit murder without their own intent or knowledge?

How about promoting the idea that you can hypnotize a store clerk into accepting blank paper as cash, or befuddle a complete stranger on the street into handing over all their belongings?


I don't see a problem with these. Anyone trying to actually do this clearly has dishonest intentions and deserves the disappointment and failure when it doesn't actually work.


You really think that criminals are the only people likely to believe these things?

You really can't think of any other ways that harm can result from a self-appointed, specious authority figure publicly promoting these kinds of false beliefs?
 

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