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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Blimey - it's got even worse since yesterday!!


I see Michael has posted an explanation of what happened when the boards split - well, half an explanation, anyway. I'm inclined to believe him. I've been reading both boards for a while, and he always seemed far more genuine than the .org crowd. Most of the characters involved with the latter come over as obnoxiously arrogant, as well as wrong. At least Michael confines himself to wrong.

It's all a bit pathetic. It's over to all intents and purposes. Anyone with two neurones to rub together realises the real question now, if there is one, is how an out-of-control police force and prosecutor managed to rob two young students of four years of their lives. But they're still going on about translations and archiving and resources for future researchers.... Oh dear.

Rolfe.
 
If he actually said the PP arrived before he made the call to the Carabinieri, it would only prove how totally confused he was or how diabolical. Just imagine how clever he would have to be to lie about the call being after the PP arrived, when that looks bad, then would be disproved by time stamps and call logs. Brilliant!

It would suggest to me something else, that being the coercive nature of his interrogation when stoned. The prosecution, as per Matteini, were going on information provided from the Postal Police who estimated their arrival time at 12:30, off by about a half hour. Also it just so happens that when they reversed the direction of the the time differential on the CCTV camera, that also suggested the Postal Police arrived around 12:30.

I've often wondered just when they discovered the CCTV camera footage. It wasn't presented before Matteini November 8th and they didn't announce it to the press until November 11th, however that doesn't preclude them having recovered the footage after the murder and choosing not to reveal just how dubious it was in order to try to force a real confession out of them. Not having put it before the court would allow them to tell media the footage was 'clear cut,' when obviously it wasn't.

I think this is one of the few things that the PGP have dropped as evidence of guilt. Not even TM uses the call to the Carabinieri as a talking point, IIRC.

I think perhaps the only one still believing it by the time of the appeal was Mignini, which made that inclusion in the Lifetime movie all the stranger, and I wonder if Mignini being interviewed for the documentary accompanying it suggested just why it was included long after it had been conclusively disproven....
 
They don't like the licking they got from Hellmann. The grounds of appeal will make interesting reading. Any bets?

The ones I've heard are that the independent experts should not have been appointed as the defense didn't act at the right time, that another set of experts was denied by the court after the prosecution didn't like the conclusions Conti and Vecchiotti came to, as well as the judges being biased against them due to those reasons and noting at the outset of the trial that the 'only thing that was certain was Meredith Kercher was dead.'

I wouldn't place money on any of them, as they came from Mignini. I dunno what the Attorney General of Perugia will attempt, but I'm wondering how much of it is formality just to satisfy Mignini's pride. I also wonder if in the end he's going to like just where this leads him...
 
Matteini based her verdict off rumors and junk evidence.
Massei states the police make no mention of Raffaele being gone at anytime during the brief 15 minutes of the Nov 2 cottage chaos. The one police actually was standing away from the door of Meredith's room with RS & AK right? I thought Massei answered the 112 in favor of the defense.
 
And if they are guilty, they get out of jail, count their blessings and shut their mouths. They take a slander conviction gratefully and do not rock the boat. They don't appeal it and risk anything else coming out. They don't write books. They just shut up and disappear.

Yes, in this case they want exposure and scrutiny, as the more there is the more certain it will be the idea of their guilt is consigned to oblivion. Let us count the ways in which this case has obvious indications of innocence, above and beyond that of other miscarriages of justice:

They were arrested as part of a mistaken arrest involving a person they had to release who they originally thought had been the instigator of the tragedy.

No evidence of either Amanda or Raffaele was found at the scene either, but plenty of a burglar with a recent history of break-ins. It will eventually sink in that unlike other cases, even those considered universally miscarriages of justice, there is no mystery about how Meredith Kercher died. The perpetrator who left his DNA inside her, on her clothes, on her purse and whose shoes tracked her blood all over the room and hall was caught and convicted.

If in fact Amanda and Raffaele were involved, that would mean that with absolutely zero forensic evidence, the prosecutor Mignini managed to perfectly solve a crime despite the fact he'd never find any physical evidence to support it, that they arrested the wrong person for initially, the 'confession' on which they made their arrests doesn't match the crime as prosecuted in any way, nor even addresses major prosecution contentions like the 'staged' break-in and reads like it came from someone who'd been slapped around a little, and the cops claim they didn't tape despite the fact it was a violation of Italian law which would cause the Supreme Court to throw out.

It can be conclusively proven that the cops lied or were mistaken regarding just about every piece of 'evidence' they'd claim they had during the weeks following the arrest.

If in fact they conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith Kercher, there has never been a crime in recorded human history where two people with no history of violence, nor cult or gang affiliations who'd known each other only six days decided to team up in murder with someone one had never met, and the other had all of a few seconds introduction to and had laid eyes on a few more times.

The idea of three people who didn't hardly know each other at all spontaneously deciding without premeditation to murder someone is about as likely as someone walking down the street and seeing someone they barely recognized yet instantaneously deciding to go with them and murder someone for absolutely no reason at all. That's basically what the prosecution contended, except they insisted new lovebirds Raffaele and Amanda had to get out of their comfy beds on a chilly November evening and go outside for no good reason so they could run into the stranger Guede.

The only thing that allowed the possibility they were at the scene of the crime is the computer data that was wiped by police in their hands during the night of the interrogation.

Despite being imprisoned for a year, and being put under heavy pressure to confess, including a fraudulent HIV 'positive' 'result' and including being told there were 'witnesses' placing them at the scene, a 'clear cut' CCTV camera capture showing Amanda entering the apartment the night of the murder, that they had the 'murder knife' with Amanda and Meredith's DNA, and the legions of false and mistaken reports, neither confessed to anything nor turned on each other despite the fact they'd spend two more years in prison after the verdict. They'd also place their entire lives on the line as well as risk seven members of their families being imprisoned and in Amanda's case jeopardize basically everything her extended family owned. Both families would be good with this and never stop fighting for their innocence.

The DNA evidence was so dubious it caused seven forensic DNA experts to write a letter to the court, which would later be validated by the Italian Court-appointed experts who would condemn it in even harsher terms, and in the process reveal to the court what a laughingstock the forensic evidence was against Raffaele and Amanda.

The sequence of events has police arresting two college kids in complicity with another man soon alibied on the basis of an incoherent 'confession' after an all-night interrogation session with the camera's off with no physical 'evidence' to support it and all non-physical to be mistaken or dubious. When the forensics were complete, only evidence of one entirely different man would be found at the scene, a man who'd fled the country while the college kids called the police and remained available for questioning the rest of the week.

No, I think it more likely this will be one of, if not the, most famous miscarriages of justice in modern times rather than anyone credible believing they did it in the long run. There a case can be made with the movies, books, international nature and the attraction of the two young people along with the bizarre nature of the case and the depths of police corruption that this case will never be forgotten, whereas virtually no-one who knows anything about it will even attempt anymore to make the case for guilt in a venue they cannot control.

It just needs time and exposure, and my guess is the prosecution appeal will simply bring more of that.
 
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Matteini based her verdict off rumors and junk evidence.
Massei states the police make no mention of Raffaele being gone at anytime during the brief 15 minutes of the Nov 2 cottage chaos. The one police actually was standing away from the door of Meredith's room with RS & AK right? I thought Massei answered the 112 in favor of the defense.

He did, however the prosecution case regarding the discovery was based on the 'hypothesis' that Raffaele had called the 112 after the Postal police arrived, 'proving' they'd been caught surprised and thus didn't get a chance to finish the 'clean-up.' Remember the whole 'surprised outside with mops in hand' mythology they tried to peddle so long ago? Mignini believed that, and prosecuted it.

However in the last days of the original trial the defense conclusively proved that the CCTV camera and cell phones properly correlated that Raffaele had called the Carabinieri before the Postal Police got there. Thus Massei had to accept that as it was hard evidence, however the testimony and 'hypothesizing' he had to work with from the prosecution all came from that erroneous context: that Raffaele and Amanda didn't call the police first, they were instead 'surprised.'
 
If in fact they conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith Kercher, there has never been a crime in recorded human history where two people with no history of violence, nor cult or gang affiliations who'd known each other only six days decided to team up in murder with someone one had never met, and the other had all of a few seconds introduction to and had laid eyes on a few more times.
The idea of three people who didn't hardly know each other at all spontaneously deciding without premeditation to murder someone is about as likely as someone walking down the street and seeing someone they barely recognized yet instantaneously deciding to go with them and murder someone for absolutely no reason at all. That's basically what the prosecution contended, except they insisted new lovebirds Raffaele and Amanda had to get out of their comfy beds on a chilly November evening and go outside for no good reason so they could run into the stranger Guede.

This argument has never been convincing to me. You later addressed the fact that they never squealed on each other, which I find to be the much stronger point. If the three of them had been involved together in the killing, one or more would have started talking early on. There has never been a credible reason given why the three would all keep mum, when turning state's witness would certainly lighten that person's sentence.

and the cops claim they didn't tape despite the fact it was a violation of Italian law which would cause the Supreme Court to throw out.

Not recording wasn't why the Corte Suprema di Cassazione wouldn't allow it in the first trial. They didn't allow it because as a witness one can't make a statement that can be used against yourself. The second statement made to Mig was thrown out because at that time she was a suspect and she was entitled to an attorney and that session was required to be recorded.
 
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I've looked over the evidence, and I still believe the same way I did before; that is, that AK and RS have guilty knowledge regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher. They may not have been directly involved but they knew what happened, and would be what we call in the US accessories to murder after the fact.

I may be totally off base on this. I am perfectly willing to concede that I haven't studied this case as closely as the regular posters in that thread.

I will be moving this discussion to the AK thread shortly but wanted to leave it here for the moment.
 
Not as mod:

I've looked over the evidence, and I still believe the same way I did before; that is, that AK and RS have guilty knowledge regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher. They may not have been directly involved but they knew what happened, and would be what we call in the US accessories to murder after the fact.

I may be totally off base on this. I am perfectly willing to concede that I haven't studied this case as closely as the regular posters in that thread.

I will be moving this discussion to the AK thread shortly but wanted to leave it here for the moment.


I find that an absolutely extraordinary position to take, and not one I can see as being in any way consistent with any of the evidence. Although I said I was bored senseless by this case, in much the same way as I'm bored senseless by homoeopaths, I have to say I'd be intrigued to see your exposition of this position on the main thread.

Rolfe.
 
Curious as to how the Corte Suprema di Cassazione will handle TOD or if they even do.

With every piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to a death before 10:13 and most likely before 9:30 one wonders how the prosecution or the PGP can still maintain that they will make the TOD 11:30 to accommodate Curatolo (BTW when does he get out, I'm betting he will not see freedom until all Meredith related trials are over. No way they want him interviewed and on YouTube)and Nara. The sheer ridiculousness of Nara hearing the most chilling scream of her life, not calling the police, and hearing shortly (a couple of minutes?) people running away (through double paned windows) making such distinct noises that she knew exactly where they were running, but not coming forward until discovered by ace cub reporter for the local rag.

Now those people running away immediately would make most of the cleanup scenarios not work. When did they take the phones and the money? When did they get the blood on the mat? When did the Rudy take his dump? When did they re-position her? Did the kids run up to the plaza all bloody and wave the knife around? Didn't Koko say it was 10:30?

Oh my, what a mess to straighten out.
 
I see Michael has posted an explanation of what happened when the boards split - well, half an explanation, anyway. I'm inclined to believe him. I've been reading both boards for a while, and he always seemed far more genuine than the .org crowd.

You're giving him way too much credit. He starts his explanation by making it sound like he shut the board down for a few minutes, to fix an "issue." But then it becomes clear he's not referring to a technical problem.. he means some kind of dispute between him and Ganong. He concludes by writing:

That's really all there is. All I have omitted is an explanation of the issue I sought to resolve and which caused the whole thing.

How ridiculous is that? Then, in a subsequent post, he explains that he was the rightful owner of the account - even though Ganong paid for it.

This guy is incapable of being honest with himself or anyone else, but he is also incapable of shutting up when the facts are against him. All of which means he has found just the right niche.
 
Sfarzo's latest post on Perugia Shock in case it has not been posted:


http://perugiashock.com/2012/02/14/...rosecution-appealing-the-acquittal/#more-1533

LOL. Frank just gets better and better.

My reading of some of the brief exerts and summaries provided by various bilinguals is the prosecution appeal comes down to them saying that the Hellmann court exercised good common sense, when they should have gone with some legal mumbo jumbo sophistry and convoluted reasoning instead. Who needs logic and reason in a court anyway? That is just not the way it is done in Italy.
 
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I've looked over the evidence, and I still believe the same way I did before; that is, that AK and RS have guilty knowledge regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher. They may not have been directly involved but they knew what happened, and would be what we call in the US accessories to murder after the fact.

I may be totally off base on this. I am perfectly willing to concede that I haven't studied this case as closely as the regular posters in that thread.

I will be moving this discussion to the AK thread shortly but wanted to leave it here for the moment.

There is no doubt that this case has no easy answers that leave no questions. As I said a little up-thread, one would think that if any of the three had a lesser role they would have gone state's witness early on. More so, if their role was as minor as you describe.

But to feed your theory, perhaps the kids did go to the cottage and stumbled onto the murder being committed by Rudy and someone else. Kokomani could have been the other person or he might have driven both Rudy and his accomplice to the cottage. Possibly Rudy was going through some mafia gang initiation. The kids could have been convincingly threatened that the gang would take care of them inside or outside of prison. Certainly, that scenario is no more wacky than what the prosecution presented.
 
Curious as to how the Corte Suprema di Cassazione will handle TOD or if they even do.

With every piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to a death before 10:13 and most likely before 9:30 one wonders how the prosecution or the PGP can still maintain that they will make the TOD 11:30 to accommodate Curatolo (BTW when does he get out, I'm betting he will not see freedom until all Meredith related trials are over. No way they want him interviewed and on YouTube)and Nara. The sheer ridiculousness of Nara hearing the most chilling scream of her life, not calling the police, and hearing shortly (a couple of minutes?) people running away (through double paned windows) making such distinct noises that she knew exactly where they were running, but not coming forward until discovered by ace cub reporter for the local rag.

Now those people running away immediately would make most of the cleanup scenarios not work. When did they take the phones and the money? When did they get the blood on the mat? When did the Rudy take his dump? When did they re-position her? Did the kids run up to the plaza all bloody and wave the knife around? Didn't Koko say it was 10:30?

Oh my, what a mess to straighten out.

Grinder

You're missing out on 'the moving of the body' theory. This is a guilter myth based on Micheli which holds that the two non-Guede perps returned hours later and moved the body. That's how Nara gets straightened out. Btw. Frank Sfarzo thinks she did hear Meredith scream but at an earlier hour. If I understand aright, he thinks her evidence was misconstrued by Massei and that it pointed to a scream at an earlier time (still too late imho) of about 10.30 IIRC.
 
Here we go again with the 112 call

Sfarzo's latest post on Perugia Shock in case it has not been posted:


http://perugiashock.com/2012/02/14/...rosecution-appealing-the-acquittal/#more-1533
It sounds as if they are going to try to resurrect the argument that Raffaele called 112 after the arrival of the postal police: "Costagliola: Because they called the 112 after the police arrived (Can you guys send him an update?)" I thought that the only people who still believed that were the ones I have been debating.
 
Not as mod:

I've looked over the evidence, and I still believe the same way I did before; that is, that AK and RS have guilty knowledge regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher. They may not have been directly involved but they knew what happened, and would be what we call in the US accessories to murder after the fact.

I may be totally off base on this. I am perfectly willing to concede that I haven't studied this case as closely as the regular posters in that thread.


I followed it regularly and think the same.
They both knew what was inside the room before the door was opened.
Raffaele probably was not there at the time of the murder, though.
 
It sounds as if they are going to try to resurrect the argument that Raffaele called 112 after the arrival of the postal police: "Costagliola: Because they called the 112 after the police arrived (Can you guys send him an update?)" I thought that the only people who still believed that were the ones I have been debating.
I know, it is baffling. Sadly, it would appear from what I have gleaned from some research and some post trawling, that the prosecution intends to indeed resurrect the old 2007-08 scenario, with not attempt at concealment of this fact.
 
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