Why so much hatred for feminism?

[truethat]

Little baby words for you.

If I raise my kids the way I want to. That makes me happy for me. Why? Because I got to do what I wanted to do.

If other women raise their kids they way they want to. Makes me happy for them. Because they got to do what they wanted to do.


My life is over here.


Everyone else's life is over there and I could give a rats tuckus what they do in their life.


Also you got busted in a competitive and rude statement. You could at least have the cahones to admit it.

But of course not. But your lash back was a very typical example of rude and catty behavior.

When my son was about 4 we went to visit a friend in the hospital. My son saw a man in scrubs and said he was a doctor. I was stunned. He certainly didn't get that stereotype at home.

This is a riddle I've used for years in my classes. It's actually considered a "brain teaser."

Question

A man and his son were in a terrible accident, the man died. The son was rushed into emergency surgery. The doctor walked into the room looked down at the boy and said "I can't operate on this boy, he's my son". Who was the doctor?

Answer

The doctor is his mother

You'd be surprised how many people can't figure it out even now.

 

[bookitty]

Really? A personal attack adds nothing to your argument, and makes you seem angry and bitter instead of trying to have a discussion. Do you really think you'll sway anyone with an attitude like that? You're making those of us that might agree with you look bad, so please stop. Bookitty is intelligent, willing to listen and look at your argument, so this attack is just petty.

Thank you. That's rather chivalrous of you. Of course, as I am a feminist I prefer to exercise my own choice as to which posts I allow into my sight.

and really, I'd rather get back to a real discussion of the perception of feminism and the various responses to declarations of being a feminist. The widening gender gap between male/female students in STEM fields from childhood to college graduation is fascinating but probably deserves it's own conversation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
I don't judge anyone else's life. You keep saying I am but I don't. I'll judge what people say and things they do but not the person. Everyone screws up something in their life.

But if someone says something stupid I'll point it out. If people make excuses for people out of same lame BS then I'll point it out. If people lie and post generalizations on here and never back them up with statistics I'll point it out.

People appeal to emotion. I'll point that out too. You seem to think that because I feel something as a personal choice for me, I expect other people to do the same thing. But why in the hell would I make that sort of connection?

Define "judging someone's life" that does not include

"what people say and things they do"
"Everyone screws up"
"if someone says something stupid I'll point it out"
"people make excuses for people out of same lame BS"
"people lie and post generalizations on here and never back them up with statistics"
"People appeal to emotion."

 

[truethat]

Define "judging someone's life" that does not include

"what people say and things they do"
"Everyone screws up"
"if someone says something stupid I'll point it out"
"people make excuses for people out of same lame BS"
"people lie and post generalizations on here and never back them up with statistics"
"People appeal to emotion."

No dearie it doesn't. It's a message board. If someone posts an illogical post I'm going to point it out. It doesn't mean that I judge them as a person.

I know nuance is difficult for you but I think you can figure out the difference if you try.

 

[bookitty]

When my son was about 4 we went to visit a friend in the hospital. My son saw a man in scrubs and said he was a doctor. I was stunned. He certainly didn't get that stereotype at home.

I started looking into this years ago when my niece, an intelligent girl who excelled in science classes, told me she no longer wanted to be an oceanographer because "It wasn't sexy." I was utterly stunned. She certainly didn't get that idea at home and her word choice was bizarre.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

Already, just in this short thread, I've seen all the classic feminist dodges: shamming language, NAFALT (not all feminists are like that), the no true Scotsman fallacy, and so on. They also pull out the classic "it's about equality", but if so, why not call it egalitarianism instead of gendering it? As someone once pointed out quite poignantly: you can't reach equality by focusing all of your attention on just one side. Sad thing is I'm all for equality, but in my experience feminism has been for anything but.

I was pretty specific in my posts (and so have some others been) and none of what you complain about here was in them.

In fact, the majority of the stereotypical complaints seem to be coming from people like yourself claiming others are making these arguments when they are not.

Yes, we are saying NAFALT. But that's because we are pointing out feminism is being defined as the extremists, rather than as the majority of them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No dearie it doesn't. It's a message board. If someone posts an illogical post I'm going to point it out. It doesn't mean that I judge them as a person.

I know nuance is difficult for you but I think you can figure out the difference if you try.

I don't see a definition here, just more judgmental comments.

 

[truethat]

I started looking into this years ago when my niece, an intelligent girl who excelled in science classes, told me she no longer wanted to be an oceanographer because "It wasn't sexy." I was utterly stunned. She certainly didn't get that idea at home and her word choice was bizarre.

That doesn't shock me. It's the way girls grow up prepared to be "looked at" all the time. Shades of Laura Mulvey.

 

[Naive1000]

Thank you. That's rather chivalrous of you. Of course, as I am a feminist I prefer to exercise my own choice as to which posts I allow into my sight. ...[snip]...

Ah, you sexist you . I would call out anyone that insults my friends, whether they be male or female. Just remember chivalry is dead, but good manners and speaking out for what's right should never die.

 

[Doubt]

Ignoring the ongoing arguments and offering up one potential answer to the question in the thread title:

1.) Gender politics suck. There are many reasons why.
2.) The best answer to the flaws of any given "-ism" is usually not another "-ism".
3.) Lack of image awareness hampers problem solving. There is a perception that feminists are preaching that men have to change as if men are the whole problem. Some do that. Some don't. Guess who gets the attention.

Being a feminist may or may not be a bad thing. Subscribing to any doctrines associated with feminism, sexism, or any other "-ism", even skepticism to the extent that is is an "ism" is probably a big part of the problem.

 

[bookitty]

Ah, you sexist you . I would call out anyone that insults my friends, whether they be male or female. Just remember chivalry is dead, but good manners and speaking out for what's right should never die.

Good mantra! Can we make it a meme?

Also, thanks for getting that it was a joke. Threads on gender equality tend to get a bit humorless.

 

[bookitty]

Ignoring the ongoing arguments and offering up one potential answer to the question in the thread title:

1.) Gender politics suck. There are many reasons why.
2.) The best answer to the flaws of any given "-ism" is usually not another "-ism".
3.) Lack of image awareness hampers problem solving. There is a perception that feminists are preaching that men have to change as if men are the whole problem. Some do that. Some don't. Guess who gets the attention.

Being a feminist may or may not be a bad thing. Subscribing to any doctrines associated with feminism, sexism, or any other "-ism", even skepticism to the extent that is is an "ism" is probably a big part of the problem.

That does come more from detractors but I suppose it doesn't really matter if it is an image problem. I sometimes wish that there was another word that summed up "an interest in addressing harmful gender roles with a special focus on those which affect my gender" but as a woman, feminist is a pretty tidy way to do it.

 

[truethat]

Ignoring the ongoing arguments and offering up one potential answer to the question in the thread title:

1.) Gender politics suck. There are many reasons why.
2.) The best answer to the flaws of any given "-ism" is usually not another "-ism".
3.) Lack of image awareness hampers problem solving. There is a perception that feminists are preaching that men have to change as if men are the whole problem. Some do that. Some don't. Guess who gets the attention.

Being a feminist may or may not be a bad thing. Subscribing to any doctrines associated with feminism, sexism, or any other "-ism", even skepticism to the extent that is is an "ism" is probably a big part of the problem.

This is actually a very good point. And it kind of nails what bugs me about the way feminism is presented. If men are the ones who have to change then it's core suggests that men are the ones with the power and men need to help women get power.

Isn't that an oxymoron? To me female autonomy always comes with self respect for your own decisions in life. Doing what is best for you and not caring what other people have to say about it.

It does get hard and yes people are going to have their comments. But meh, it's your life, do as you please.

The only time I would consider it an issue of female oppression is if the woman herself could not help the situation. There are many situations like that. However I often see "feminists' trying to pawn off personal responsibility as somehow a form of victimization. One I won't bring up again in here lest I drive everyone crazy, is unwanted pregnancy. I don't see a woman in that situation as oppressed by anything other than her own poor choices in life. And that happens.

There are some situations I do think are oppression but these have to do with not counting women's work. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Gloria Steinem's comments about welfare mothers being discussed as if they are not working. She points out that domestic work is often not counted, it's "free work." And she discusses the second shift that many working mothers face.

Those areas are of interest to me and are on point. But this has more to do with making careful choices in life than being victimized by the patriarchy.

 

[Naive1000]

I was pretty specific in my posts (and so have some others been) and none of what you complain about here was in them.

In fact, the majority of the stereotypical complaints seem to be coming from people like yourself claiming others are making these arguments when they are not.

Yes, we are saying NAFALT. But that's because we are pointing out feminism is being defined as the extremists, rather than as the majority of them.

We must be looking at two different threads from "drama queen" to if you talk badly about feminism your a misogynist. You can try to turn it on me, but I'm just looking rationally and I haven't attacked anyone. And, NAFALT doesn't work when the "real" feminist running the feminist organizations are what everyone refers to as extremists. If the silent majority sits back and lets them do whatever than that's a tacit endorsement.


@Bookitty: I've read enough of your posts to know a joke and I can take 'em. And go right ahead, be nice to have a couple of non-incendiary memes.

 

[bookitty]

We must be looking at two different threads from "drama queen" to if you talk badly about feminism your a misogynist. You can try to turn it on me, but I'm just looking rationally and I haven't attacked anyone. And, NAFALT doesn't work when the "real" feminist running the feminist organizations are what everyone refers to as extremists. If the silent majority sits back and lets them do whatever than that's a tacit endorsement.


@Bookitty: I've read enough of your posts to know a joke and I can take 'em. And go right ahead, be nice to have a couple of non-incendiary memes.

You know, feminism covers a lot of ground. It's got victories, baggage, top names which can't agree with each other, all sorts contemporary and historical thought. It's a mass of people from hugely divergent backgrounds trying to agree on the best way to make things better from a social standpoint. The society they are working with is resistant to change but still being affected. When it is affected, the dialogue of feminism doesn't always catch up right away.

In other words, it's kind of a mess. But right now, it's the most effective movement for change. It's got the troops, the backing, some decent spokespeople, networking, voting power and so forth. This mess also means that there's no one voice, so new ideas always have a place. There's both good and bad in letting anyone spout off. It means that I can condemn feminism for being too slow to embrace the cause of transwomen without having to turn in my card*. It's this mess that allows for discussion of father's rights, inclusive language for prosecuting rape, or the support of pornography.

If there was "one true feminist," I can't imagine what zhe'd talk about.


*We don't really have cards. Sorry.

 

[a_unique_person]

Feminism challenged established values. What better way to attract hate.

 

[a_unique_person]

You see the successful males, but how do you know how many women meet all these same criteria but were excluded from promotion along the way? I'm pretty sure that is a well established fact, btw.

The number of woman on the boards of companies, for example. As a commentator remarked on the radio, "You would think that in a market economy, they would be taking advantage of the lower rates of pay for women".

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Feminist covert aggression

Covert aggression is where you attack by underhanded, deceitful means - concealing your aggression with covert tactics.


So the OP comes out following the feminist script of painting himself as a victim of "hatred", when the covert agenda is pushing misandry.

I love the code word "power" used by our feminist because it exploits the insinuation that if more men are CEO's then evil men are abusing women - exercising power over them. Covert aggression always utilizes plausible deniability - you always deny the thing you are doing while you are in the middle of doing it. So it follows that will be denied of course, just as the OP denies being a bigot while busily painting men as evil.

It does not follow logically of course - that men are somehow the abusers and women the victims on account of more male CEO's. I am president and owner of a stupid little company and have run sole proprietorships since I was a teenager, whereas my wife does not work outside the home.

I have no "power" except to work and do contracts for clients. My wife lacks no "power" in this relationship, nor in anything she sets her mind to. That's just some stupid meme a covert aggressive uses to paint me as evil and my wife as a victim. I'm the one with "power". Pffft.

It illustrates that it is the feminist denigrating my wife, not me. Denigrating both of us. Under the covert cover of claiming victimhood as a feminist: look how we're so hated, poor little me.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

One of my favourite books described there being feminisms. For me I use the term along with "pro-gay" interchangeably with "pro-gender equality" and "pro-sexual equality". It's just that most of the time the the first set of terms more easily apply. I feel that they are more useful as denoting one's ideals. There are plenty of people who are pro-gay, anti-racist, feminist, etc. who have different policy views than me, but we have the same ideals. People have crazy stories from a few decades ago, but I think all the social movements were crazy back then . But there are always divisions between mainstream and radical segments, and there is plenty of debate. There are pro-gay people who favour the mainstream gay marriage, and there are pro-gay people who reject being assimilated into such heterosexist shackles! For some ending self-segregation is anti-racist, others want to preserve their unique community from gentrification.

For me my biggest pet peeves are abortion and allegedly victim blaming sexual assault adverts. I can see both sides on the issues, but I don't see why being a feminist necessitates either. And I've heard of the anti-sex worker/actor feminists, especially in Sweden, but I haven't really encountered any. And I've heard people use the term sex-positive, but I've never really met sex-negative ones. I'm sure they exist, but as I alluded to above, we all probably have experiences with differing feminisms.

I think the two most common issues for me when using the "pro-gender equality" label makes more sense are the unacceptability of male homemakers and the acceptability of violence against males. Some news program did a great example of the second one, but I can't remember the name to search for it .

(My favourite blog on this is feministing)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We must be looking at two different threads from "drama queen" to if you talk badly about feminism your a misogynist. You can try to turn it on me, but I'm just looking rationally and I haven't attacked anyone. And, NAFALT doesn't work when the "real" feminist running the feminist organizations are what everyone refers to as extremists. If the silent majority sits back and lets them do whatever than that's a tacit endorsement.

Where's the "you're a misogynist" post. I missed that one. The other you describe was supported with a quote demonstrating the case. I don't see how that fits your described complaint.

But you would appear to be in the camp taking a couple extremist newsmakers and wrongly stereotyping the bulk of the movement. It's hardly a silent majority.