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Gay rights are often used as an excuse for attack on marriage itself -- denials notwithstanding -- the ultimate goal being a society where marriage, that antiquated evil and sexist institution, is eliminated.
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not kidding. I've NEVER seen that view represented anywhere in the mainstream gay rights community.

Seems like you're stuck on two things here: The first being an outdated picture of feminism. The second being a false dichotomy that people either support antiquated and sexist institutions of marriage, or they oppose marriage altogether.

Second-wave feminists from the 60s and 70s really did hammer on the idea that marriage is patriarchal, sexist, and enslaved women. Betty Friedan's "Feminine Mystique" comes to mind, it totally eviscerates the view that a woman's role is to be a mother and housewife, its a helluva read, and it was hugely influential, had a strong impact on the women's separatist movement.

Needless to say, that particular flavor of feminism is outdated. By the 80s, the women's rights movement successfully integrated women in the workplace, reduced feelings of "otherness" between men and women, established equality between the sexes as a default rather than compromise. Third-wave feminists developed as a reaction to the previous generation: they view sex, marriage, traditional femininity more positively.

Changing cultural attitudes fitted a third choice into the dichotomy above: a picture of marriage which regards partners as equals. Its a position which has all of the benefits of opposing sexism, and none of the drawbacks of opposing marriage entirely. Progressive conceptions of married are decidedly less macho and chauvinistic.

No wonder the people you criticize don't exist: almost all people who support marriage equality support gender equality, and support conceptions of marriage which treat partners as equals. Progressives do NOT view marriage as the same sexist institution it was 60 years ago.

For this type of "gay marriage" activist (as opposed to the folks who really are pro-gay, as opposed to anti-marriage)
"This type of gay marriage activist" is based on an antiquated characature of a stereotype of people who do not exist. A huge proportion of people who support gay marriage are, in fact, heterosexual and married.

There are a handful of people who believe that the government should get out of the marriage business entirely, but they are very quick to add that, while heterosexual couples have the right to marry, gay couples deserve equal rights.

the "rights" of polygamists are next. That polygamists are, almost inevitably, chauvinist pigs who really DO enslave their women, is conveniently, forgotten for the moment (it's all just "more love" or something, right?), as part of the goal of the elimination of the evil and sexist institute of marriage (as they see it)
No, the reality of fundamentalist Mormon is not "conveniently forgotten". Any thread on this forum, this one for example, nearly always draws attention to fundamentalist Mormon hellholes where 11-year-old girls are treated as sex slaves. Nobody wants that. If polygamists get their right to marry, it will NOT permit child sexual slavery.

The Brown family in Lehi Utah (from the TLC show "Sister Wives") is pretty much the model of polygamy that people support: consenting, rational adults who mutually support another. Its an interesting arrangement, Kody Brown is legally married to one woman, but has a religious commitment to three other women, all of them cohabitate in the same home.

At the moment, I don't believe there are many strong arguments against polyamorous relationships being legally recognized. Its an interesting discussion in its own right.
 
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Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not kidding. I've NEVER seen that view represented anywhere in the mainstream gay rights community.

Seems like you're stuck on two things here: The first being an outdated picture of feminism. The second being a false dichotomy that people either support antiquated and sexist institutions of marriage, or they oppose marriage altogether.

Second-wave feminists from the 60s and 70s really did hammer on the idea that marriage is patriarchal, sexist, and enslaved women. Betty Friedan's "Feminine Mystique" comes to mind, it totally eviscerates the view that a woman's role is to be a mother and housewife, its a helluva read, and it was hugely influential, had a strong impact on the women's separatist movement.

Needless to say, that particular flavor of feminism is outdated. By the 80s, the women's rights movement successfully integrated women in the workplace, reduced feelings of "otherness" between men and women, established equality between the sexes gained rather than compromise.

Third-wave feminists developed as a reaction to the previous generation: they view sex, marriage, traditional femininity more positively.

Cultural attitudes fitted a third choice into the dichotomy above: a picture of marriage which regards partners as equals. Its a position which has all of the benefits of opposing sexism, and none of the drawbacks of opposing marriage entirely. Progressive conceptions of married are decidedly less macho and chauvinistic.

No wonder the people you criticize don't exist: almost all people who support marriage equality support gender equality, and support conceptions of marriage which treat partners as equals. Progressives do NOT view marriage as the same sexist institution it was 60 years ago.


"This type of gay marriage activist" is based on an antiquated characature of a stereotype of people who do not exist. A huge proportion of people who support gay marriage are, in fact, heterosexual and married.

There are a handful of people who believe that the government should get out of the marriage business entirely, but they are very quick to add that, while heterosexual couples have the right to marry, gay couples deserve equal rights.


No, the reality of fundamentalist Mormon is not "conveniently forgotten". Any thread on this forum, this one for example, nearly always draws attention to fundamentalist Mormon hellholes where 11-year-old girls are treated as sex slaves. Nobody wants that. If polygamists get their right to marry, it will NOT permit child sexual slavery.

The Brown family in Lehi Utah (from the TLC show "Sister Wives") is pretty much the model of polygamy that people support: consenting, rational adults who mutually support another. Its an interesting arrangement, Kody Brown is legally married to one woman, but has a religious commitment to three other women, all of them cohabitate in the same home.

At the moment, I don't believe there are many strong arguments against polyamorous relationships being legally recognized. Its an interesting discussion in its own right.

Smart gay chicks are soooooo sexy. :D
 
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not kidding. I've NEVER seen that view represented anywhere in the mainstream gay rights community.
No need for the restriction clause. But your first question is certainly relevant from my perspective. I am astonished at the views expressed.
 
I think he saw Neil Patrick Harris' character on "How I Met Your Mother" rant against marriage and figures that what the gay marriage movement is really about.
 
It's not hard. I am using my personal experience, but even a two-minute google search for (for example) found a woman who is all agog for gay rights -- but only because she, a single woman, is fighting for the "rights of singles":
That link in no way supports your assertion. The author is lamenting the discrimination against singles. She is NOT asserting that marriage should go away.

Try your Google search again but be sure to read the links that come up with attention to detail.
 
Ah, here we disagree. What you're saying is a bit like saying "it's just so readily evident to everyone that the opposition to the Pope's policies is rooted in irrational hatred of God". Well, not necessarily -- even if you are a believer in God. You might just think, with good reason, that many of those who proclaim to speak for God have an ulterior motive -- in this case, Church power.

Same here. Gay rights are often used as an excuse for attack on marriage itself -- denials notwithstanding -- the ultimate goal being a society where marriage, that antiquated evil and sexist institution, is eliminated. This is why, while gay marriage per se is not necessarily an attack on marriage, the political campaign for it is: because gay marriage is only a stage.

For this type of "gay marriage" activist (as opposed to the folks who really are pro-gay, as opposed to anti-marriage), the "rights" of polygamists are next. That polygamists are, almost inevitably, chauvinist pigs who really DO enslave their women, is conveniently, forgotten for the moment (it's all just "more love" or something, right?), as part of the goal of the elimination of the evil and sexist institute of marriage (as they see it).
Straw and more straw.

The Prop8 case, as with the 'gay marriage movement', is focused on equal access to a government issued marriage *license*, which has nothing to do with the numerous religious ceremonies just called 'marriage'.

Since polygamy is criminalized, pretending to know that polygamists in general are abusive slavers is based on those who get attention for abuse... not on the people who may or may not practice polygamy without abuse, were it legal.

It also takes conditions (abuse, incest, infidelity) found in a significant number of 'traditional' marriages and pretends it is somehow only a problem with polygamists.

Fail.
 
A huge proportion of people who support gay marriage are, in fact, heterosexual and married.
:w2:

There are a handful of people who believe that the government should get out of the marriage business entirely, but they are very quick to add that, while heterosexual couples have the right to marry, gay couples deserve equal rights.
This too.

The Brown family in Lehi Utah (from the TLC show "Sister Wives") is pretty much the model of polygamy that people support: consenting, rational adults who mutually support another. Its an interesting arrangement, Kody Brown is legally married to one woman, but has a religious commitment to three other women, all of them cohabitate in the same home.

At the moment, I don't believe there are many strong arguments against polyamorous relationships being legally recognized. Its an interesting discussion in its own right.
I'm not opposed to polyamoury per se, but it would be easier to accept if Brown himself, personally, wasn't such a douchebag.
 
:w2:


This too.


I'm not opposed to polyamoury per se, but it would be easier to accept if Brown himself, personally, wasn't such a douchebag.
Brown is in no way shape or form the poster child for polyamory.

Polygamy, maybe... with the caveat I gave above.
 
At the moment, I don't believe there are many strong arguments against polyamorous relationships being legally recognized. Its an interesting discussion in its own right.

Legal recognition of poyamorous relationships is much harder. All laws that deal with married couples are incumbent on marriage being a union between two persons. When you have, e.g., a 4-way marriage, how do you do joint tax filings, who are the parents of children, who gives medical consent, who inherits, etc. etc. You'd have to review and rewrite all of those laws. And in many cases, that would not be easy.

By contrast, same-sex marriage is just rewriting one article: deleting the clause that says that marriage partners must be of different gender. None of all those other laws take gender of the partners into account.

And oh, Robert Prey, we've had here same-sex marriage for over 10 years and society still hasn't collapsed. :rolleyes:
 
And it was precisely those individual rights which got same-sex marriage legalized in Canada since prohibiting it was found to be in contravention of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


Then the Canadian law is in contravention with reality. There is no such a thing as same sex "marriage."
 
Some quick and dirty math for your amusement: of the 100,000 years humanity has existed, modern organized religion has only existed for a whooping 5% of it, and "traditional marriage" has only been around for 1.67% of humanity's existence.

Not that Prey's arguments were in any way remotely valid before, but seeing it like puts it in perspective, don't it?

And in all that alleged time, how many humans were created by a union of homosexuals?????
 
And in all that alleged time, how many humans were created by a union of homosexuals?????
How many people care? The world population is 7 Billion people Robert. We are in no danger. Chill out. BTW: marriage doesn't increase gay relationships so your argument is beyond absurd.
 
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Then the Canadian law is in contravention with reality. There is no such a thing as same sex "marriage."


I wasn't aware you are the sole determiner of what reality consists of. When were you granted this exalted status? By whom? More importantly, why did none of the rest of us get the memo on your stupendous appointment to the position of arbiter of all that is to be judged reality?

Less flippantly, go read the various court decisions. The legal reasoning for the decisions is contained within them. Same-sex marriage has been legal in all of Canada for 6½ years now and the country hasn't collapsed. It hasn't descended into societal or moral chaos. No, everything is pretty much going along as it had before.
 

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