Why so much hatred for feminism?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Most of the SAHMs I know are in Graduate school. One of the big problems in the US are the work hours. For example one of the reasons I stayed home as long as I did was because kids get out of school at 3 and mom and dad usually work until 5-6. So what do you do with the kids for three hours? it's actually easier to have them in preschool than in regular school. So moms are often staying home until the child is about 10 and can walk home and come home alone. In this interim there is the opportunity to go back to school. Nowadays with the internet mom can go to school online while the kids are in school.

So I think that the internet has a lot to do with it.

The school district we live in has before and after day care on site at the school.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you force the father of your children to work while you stayed home with the kids or was there a logical reason why he went to work instead of you? Was this the expectation that you put on him? Are you one of the ones who got to enjoy the at home life and explore other passions while he was expected to work right out of the gate?

Oh the irony.

 

[truethat]

The school district we live in has before and after day care on site at the school.

So does ours. But after care in public school normally means desks and chairs for the kids. Would you want to "hang out" in a classroom for three hours? It's uncomfortable and stressful. Even if they go into a school activity you've got your kid in a program from 7 am until around 6pm at night. That's almost a 12 hour day and then they get to go home eat and do homework crash and sleep and get up and do it all the next day.

Not a very nice life for a small child. If you need the money you have to do it but if you don't, then it's not necessarily worth it to moms. In addition if you have more than one child the cost of day care starts to become so expensive that it's not worth it to work anyway.

Did you force the father of your children to work while you stayed home with the kids or was there a logical reason why he went to work instead of you? Was this the expectation that you put on him? Are you one of the ones who got to enjoy the at home life and explore other passions while he was expected to work right out of the gate?

I didn't force the father of my children to work. My ex was Egyptian and my husband now is Greek. Very patriarchal societies. And machismo type societies. I didn't even have to discuss it. The expectation was put on both of them.

I am one of the ones that got to explore other passions while he was expected to work right out of the gate. I now own my own company so it worked out but. Yes. My husband now is a drummer and was a professional drummer right out of the gate. But he also was a Greek mamas boy and didn't leave home until he was 27 years old. So he's kind of an odd example. But now he works at a bank even though he would rather stay home and drum.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

By who? Who is the one with the chip on your shoulder. LOL

I never said that. Is someone else in this thread that I'm not seeing?

I value the work it takes to raise a child and maintain a household. I'm proud of how my son turned out. I think such work is undervalued by society.

My work as a nurse was undervalued by employers for the first 10 years of my career. It is well accepted that the main underlying cause of that undervaluing was the fact most nurses were women.

You seem to have missed those messages in my posts. Why is that?

 

[lomiller]

College Gender Gap Appears to be Stabilizing with One Notable Exception, American Council on Education Analysis Finds

Starting in the 70's there was a push to get more women into college, there were policies written, grants given, scholarships created. There was an imbalance in the system, it was addressed. There was a short while where the imbalance swung the other way and now it is heading back to center.

All that link is saying is the gap may have stopped growing, not that it's shrinking.

This is the goal of social programs and it is heartening to have a working example.

There was a slight gap favouring men in the late 70’s but it’s favoured women from ~1990 onwards. To me, the fact that this gap continued to grow after some ballance was achived suggests this was not a successful social endeavour but a regressive one.

 

[truethat]

I value the work it takes to raise a child and maintain a household. I'm proud of how my son turned out. I think such work is undervalued by society.

My work as a nurse was undervalued by employers for the first 10 years of my career. It is well accepted that the main underlying cause of that undervaluing was the fact most nurses were women.

You seem to have missed those messages in my posts. Why is that?

What does that have to do with what we're discussing? It's your personal life I'm not the slightest bit interested in that. I know people ask me about mine and I do contribute but these are simply your experiences and mine, they don't represent anything more than that.


Do you want a medal for suffering under oppression or something? Go start another thread and maybe someone will come in to post who cares.

Shrug.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So does ours. But after care in public school normally means desks and chairs for the kids. Would you want to "hang out" in a classroom for three hours? It's uncomfortable and stressful. Even if they go into a school activity you've got your kid in a program from 7 am until around 6pm at night. That's almost a 12 hour day and then they get to go home eat and do homework crash and sleep and get up and do it all the next day.

Not a very nice life for a small child. If you need the money you have to do it but if you don't, then it's not necessarily worth it to moms. In addition if you have more than one child the cost of day care starts to become so expensive that it's not worth it to work anyway.

First, the daycare in our school district was excellent.

Second, I was able to afford good daycare when my son was preschool age. It was about $1,000 month. I did not want to work to provide us a middle class life by dropping him off at a lower class daycare to do it.

Third, not every single mom is so fortunate financially.

If you, as a homemaker, value women, why would you be so focused on yourself, on your own situation, as if we are all devaluing you? Do you have any empathy for women who cannot afford to stay at home? Are you calling them bad mothers?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What does that have to do with what we're discussing? It's your personal life I'm not the slightest bit interested in that. I know people ask me about mine and I do contribute but these are simply your experiences and mine, they don't represent anything more than that.


Do you want a medal for suffering under oppression or something? Go start another thread and maybe someone will come in to post who cares.

Shrug.

 

[truethat]

First, the daycare in our school district was excellent.

Second, I was able to afford good daycare when my son was preschool age. It was about $1,000 month. I did not want to work to provide us a middle class life by dropping him off at a lower class daycare to do it.

Third, not every single mom is so fortunate financially.

If you, as a homemaker, value women, why would you be so focused on yourself, on your own situation, as if we are all devaluing you? Do you have any empathy for women who cannot afford to stay at home? Are you calling them bad mothers?

Jesus feckin' christ. You see what I mean King Merv. And there it is.

SKEPTIC GINGER I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!!! I AM TALKING ABOUT THE REASON SO MANY MORE WOMEN SEEM TO BE GOING TO GRADUATE SCHOOL.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WOMEN WHO WORK AND I AM NOT CALLING THEM BAD MOTHERS>

 

[Caper]

This is exactly
"Women are catty" is a stereotype people people spout without credible evidence. Women may have damaged YOU in your life but I and other people disagree. Neither side has the authority to tag such a large and diverse group of people in such a way.

Stereotypes stick because they are true. Women are catty.

One of my favorite Adam Carolla rants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG1hI8rQH4g

His point. All stereotypes are true.... that's why they stick.... if they weren't true they wouldn't stick.

 

[timhau]

As an aside, one thing that troubles me is the fact that I can't name a single self-made female billionaire. I don't doubt they are there, but I could rattle off Gates, Allen, Buffett, Ellison, Zuckerberg, etc.

This troubled me enough that I checked the top 100 names on the Forbes billionaire list. I still can't name a single self-made female billionaire; the list has 10 billionaire women, all of whom inherited their wealth (and of course managed it brilliantly to stay on the list). The wealthiest woman on that list is Christy Walton (daughter-in-law of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton), at #10; of the 9 billionaire men listed above her, 5 are listed as self-made (telecom mogul Carlos Slim Helu, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Larry Ellison, and Brazil's richest man Eike Batista).

 

[truethat]

if you guys don't understand the simple debate between sahm and working moms, then you are outside a very important paradigm.

As a stay at home mother i learned that i was never ever allowed to be proud of the fact that i stayed home with my kids. Doing so was considered being offensive to other working moms. Yes some of those moms had to work. But some of those moms wanted to work and had kids and put them in day care. The kids are all fine but some sahm would not make the same choice for their kids.

This is skating dangerously close to judgment. What happens is that it is there but not overt, more hidden with a whole boat load of hostility between many women. It is right under the surface.

and action:

first, the daycare in our school district was excellent.

Second, i was able to afford good daycare when my son was preschool age. It was about $1,000 month. I did not want to work to provide us a middle class life by dropping him off at a lower class daycare to do it.

Third, not every single mom is so fortunate financially.

If you, as a homemaker, value women, why would you be so focused on yourself, on your own situation, as if we are all devaluing you? Do you have any empathy for women who cannot afford to stay at home? Are you calling them bad mothers?

What I love the most about this is that Skeptic Ginger is railing about my lack of empathy for poor mothers just after she toots her own horn for not sending her own son to "LOW CLASS" day cares. So I wonder who uses them Skeptic Ginger.


Seriously.

LMAO

 

[KingMerv00]

...snip...

I try my best to assume people who disagree with me are not being malicious. Maybe you're just kidding around and I'm meant to read lightheartedness into it. Seems unlikely.

I appreciate people who disagree with me. Hell, I've learned a few things in this thread already. On the other hand, people who resort to insults and talking-head style point scoring are another matter. If it makes you happy, feel free to think you are totally wicked sweet and pwned my newb ass. I'll be over here having a conversation.

 

[lomiller]

This troubled me enough that I checked the top 100 names on the Forbes billionaire list. I still can't name a single self-made female billionaire; the list has 10 billionaire women, all of whom inherited their wealth (and of course managed it brilliantly to stay on the list). The wealthiest woman on that list is Christy Walton (daughter-in-law of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton), at #10; of the 9 billionaire men listed above her, 5 are listed as self-made (telecom mogul Carlos Slim Helu, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Larry Ellison, and Brazil's richest man Eike Batista).

Off the top of my head
Oprah Winfrey
Meg Whitman
Martha Stewart ? (was at one point not sure she is still there)
Carly Fiorina ? (not sure she made ebnough in her time at HP)
JK Rowling ?

 

[epepke]

Dare I ask how they are trying to bring it back? If your answer rhymes with "shmelevatorgate", forget I asked. Don't want a massive derail.

Heh.

No; that was pretty minor, and I think it has been settled. I'd rather not revisit it either. However, if you hang out there, you'll see some atavistic patterns. I think they're upset about women's underwear these days.

It remains to be seen how influential they will be in the skeptical community, let alone at large. It might turn out to be a flash in the pan.

 

[timhau]

Off the top of my head
Oprah Winfrey

Yup, she's there. #420.

Meg Whitman

She's there too, #938.

Martha Stewart ? (was at one point not sure she is still there)
Carly Fiorina ? (not sure she made ebnough in her time at HP)

They're not.

JK Rowling ?

Naturally. I should have remembered her, but I was thinking of businesspeople (or people known mainly as businesspeople). She's tied for last place on the list, her wealth is listed at $1 billion.

That's three, which is two less than I found among top 9 men.

 

[bookitty]

All that link is saying is the gap may have stopped growing, not that it's shrinking.




There was a slight gap favouring men in the late 70’s but it’s favoured women from ~1990 onwards. To me, the fact that this gap continued to grow after some ballance was achived suggests this was not a successful social endeavour but a regressive one.

It's still a slight gap and one that is slowly closing. It is also part of a much larger and more complex social issue. College attendance is hardly the big picture. There are many other aspects.

For example, men and women now earn roughly the same amount of master's degrees but women use them to enter fields such as education while men use them to find jobs in fields like engineering. Obviously there will be some difference in post-graduate income. So while we do need to work on raising the high school graduation rates of boys, we also need to work on encouraging girls to study science-related programs. These are two very different issues that will need different solutions. Focusing on one does not mean that the other is ignored.

 

[lomiller]

They're not.

Looks like Stewart was there in 2005 but has dropped since due to her legal troubles.

That's three, which is two less than I found among top 9 men.

If you look at how some of the self made billionaires made their fortunes most of it seems to come down to business management preferably backed with some sort of technical innovation. There does seem to be a direct correlation to the types of education males gravitate to, engineering and both management tend to be male dominated.

The simplest explanation seems to be there are simply more men doing the things that are likely to result in self made billionaires.

Of all the people we’ve discussed I suspect Warren Buffet is the only one who could realistically repeat the feat if he started as a young person today. All the others seem to have an element of being at the right place and the right time.

 

[sgtbaker]

I didn't force the father of my children to work. My ex was Egyptian and my husband now is Greek. Very patriarchal societies. And machismo type societies. I didn't even have to discuss it. The expectation was put on both of them.

I love how there is always a reason why you did it but you are the exception. Is it possible, just possible that the patriachal society put those expectations on men to work?

I am one of the ones that got to explore other passions while he was expected to work right out of the gate. I now own my own company so it worked out but. Yes. My husband now is a drummer and was a professional drummer right out of the gate. But he also was a Greek mamas boy and didn't leave home until he was 27 years old. So he's kind of an odd example. But now he works at a bank even though he would rather stay home and drum

Wasn't it wrong to insult men for staying home too long past school? You aren't helping the cause by calling him a mamas boy because he stayed home till he was 27. Just so you understand, the roots of the feminist movement were that everyone suffers from gender roles, including men. Every reason you've listed that men suffer as a result of societies "expectations" are a part of the gender roles placed on men, by a male dominated society.

 

[JihadJane]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here's another thing. Try discussing men's issues and they are batted away with a sledgehammer of all the ails of women. Only discussing women's issues matter.

Women have the options of tying their tubes. Why should a woman be able to make a personal choice that says "I don't want to have a baby" and be able to have an abortion because it's her right to choose whether to be a mother. But if she does choose to have the baby and man says "I don't want to be a father, I can't afford it and I'm too young" tough titties baby.

I didn't state that men should have the right to demand women have abortions. I said they should have the right to not take care of a child he doesn't want and can't afford. Double standard all the way. My suggestion in the abortion thread that women should never have sex without a condom was treated like an unrealistic and evil suggestion. Also apparently "poor folks can't afford condoms" and so abstinence was considered ridiculous.

See what you wrote. If I suggested that women who don't want to have children yet go get themselves sterilized, people would go crazy. But you just said that to a man and it's fine and dandy.

Seriously Skeptic Ginger back on ignore you go. Your posts are THISCLOSE to being misandry.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Drama Queen!