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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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..... it is positively the biggest headscratcher I can conceive that anyone mistook either Knox or Sollecito as anything more than a person of interest. Strangely, and I am not trying to be mean to them, they aren't even THAT interesting as people. Sorry, I feel that way. They are very, very typical 20-somethings these days.
Speaking as someone old enough to be their father, I agree (but I'm not particularly interesting either - very few people are). They're just typical 20-somethings. What fascinates me is the abuse of power, the motivations for that and the consequences. I hate bullies. Also, I see the wanton destruction of the hope and freedom of youth as a terrible thing.

Did anyone read Barbie Latza Nadeau's piece in The Daily Beast about Knox appealing the calunnia conviction?

Nadeau said the appeal was the result of Knox wanting to remain in the public eye.... "Does Amanda Knox miss the limelight? It would appear so, as she is back in the news now that her Italian lawyers have filed an appeal ..... "

What an absolutely scuzzy remark. Slimey yellow journalism at its best.
I saw that article and that phrase at the start hit me too. What a pathetic thing to say. She sounds so bitter. Just can't let it go. Even without admitting she was wrong, she could exit with quiet dignity and let time heal it. But she keeps digging her hole deeper. Have you noticed how her crappy book is now being given the title "Angel Face" whenever it is referenced. They must be so embarrassed about the sub-title "the True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox". There may be some libel issues in that too. I hope Knox goes after some of these people.

As a late comer, I can't believe this is even being typed about in Feb 2012. It should have ended with Guede, and shouldn't have even got that far.
That's the real kicker in all this. When Guede turned up, they should have been freed along with Lumumba. And none of us would know much if anything about it. I think Mignini might have escaped with his integrity intact. As it is, he and the rest of the Italian judiciary opened themselves up to international scrutiny and showed themselves for what they are. Not a clever move. I don't actually think he's that smart. Only sees the local parochial game; can't see the bigger picture.
 
That's the real kicker in all this. When Guede turned up, they should have been freed along with Lumumba. And none of us would know much if anything about it. I think Mignini might have escaped with his integrity intact. As it is, he and the rest of the Italian judiciary opened themselves up to international scrutiny and showed themselves for what they are. Not a clever move. I don't actually think he's that smart. Only sees the local parochial game; can't see the bigger picture.
Richard Nixon: "On the Watergate tapes, Nixon himself declared, “It’s not the crime that gets you… it’s the cover up.” He understood that he probably could have survived the Watergate scandal if only he had admitted White House involvement early on instead of covering his tracks. The nation might have forgiven Nixon for mismanaging his campaign, but not for obstructing justice."

Mignini should have read American history. In the fog of investigation, where everything is murky and few lead actually lead anywhere, but they have to be followed anyway, I think even the most hard core innocenter would have forgiven Mignini for getting it wrong intially....

But to carry it through to those comments he made in Oct 2011 as the reason why Knox and Sollecito should be given life sentences......

That's the issue here.
 
I saw that article and that phrase at the start hit me too. What a pathetic thing to say. She sounds so bitter. Just can't let it go. Even without admitting she was wrong, she could exit with quiet dignity and let time heal it. But she keeps digging her hole deeper. Have you noticed how her crappy book is now being given the title "Angel Face" whenever it is referenced. They must be so embarrassed about the sub-title "the True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox". There may be some libel issues in that too. I hope Knox goes after some of these people.
I have friends who are themselves journalists who have a regional profile, a couple have a national profile, and one has briefly had an international profile. Like Nadeau for some US news agencies, they are considered the stringer to-go-to if you need a quick story from my region. A good friend of mine is also a some-time journalist living in Chile, who is the go-to-person if a news agency locally here needs a quick sound-byte or a bit of copy from Chile.

Based on this, I think in the early-fog-of-war-what-the-heck-is-going-on-in-Perugia, Nadeau as a journalist realized she had a bit of a scoop. Like the other American ex-pats in Italy, who had the advantage of speaking Italian and could literally shape the narrative back in America, this was Nadeau's big chance. Geez Louise, CNN is calling!

The two decisions Nadeau faced as a journalist - early decisions that are hard to back away from - are these: is Knox innocent or guilty? Also, do I cover this tabloid-style, or investigative-style?

For CNN she covered it as an investigative journalist. Dec 2009 she told CNN, "The evidence against Knox at conviction is weak, this could very well be verturned at appeal." Yes, Nadeau said that to CNN the day after the 1st Instance conviction.

To the Daily Beast.... "Foxy Knoxy doesn't know how to dress in a courtroom and keeps winking at her boy-toy...."

The advantage of going tabloid, is that you are banking on the short-haul - if this is going to be a flash in the pan, let's make the flash as bright as possible. Early on, Nadeau could well have thought - "Geez, this is not going to be a story in 2008. If it goes into 2009 I'll be surprised. Let's go for some sizzle."

So let's go for the "Knox knows something she's not telling us," angle. That way you can dance between saying you've either always believed she was guilty, or that you always believed she was innocent as need be, depending on whether it was CNN or The Daily Beat you were reporting for.

The important thing is to get "Student Killer" in the title of your book - maybe that title will re-ignite the flash.....

Yet on 3 Oct 2011, the air goes out of Nadeau's initial journalistic instincts. No, this is not a flash in the pan, and this is not really a tabloid story of sex, drugs, and lesbian-rape.... this is a story of a completely corrupt prosecution, which when you take one look at Mignini, is not really that sexy at all.

It's like the yawns you hear as a journalist when you report that the Mignini's minions only quote is, "I was only following orders." Geez, do they STILL claim that? Can we get a picture of one of those female cops in those high boots again! Isn't it sexy the way they let their hair flow down over their anti-contamination suits!

Nadeau can be forgiven the fog-of-war early on. I mean, even Frank Sfarzo and Candace Dempsey early on were able to believe such an unlikely story, when seen with 20-20 hindsight. "Stranger things have happened," could be an early rationale.

That Frank and Candace went one way, and Nadeau continues into 2012 with Knox appealing a criminal conviction only because, "Knox just loves the limelight," is about as scuzzy as one can get.

And it reveals the real tragedy of Nadeau's approach to journalism.

She hasn't learned anything.
 
That others do is the weirdest part.

Did anyone read Barbie Latza Nadeau's piece in The Daily Beast about Knox appealing the calunnia conviction?

Nadeau said the appeal was the result of Knox wanting to remain in the public eye.... "Does Amanda Knox miss the limelight? It would appear so, as she is back in the news now that her Italian lawyers have filed an appeal ..... "

This is so sad.

sigh
 
Based on this, I think in the early-fog-of-war-what-the-heck-is-going-on-in-Perugia, Nadeau as a journalist realized she had a bit of a scoop. Like the other American ex-pats in Italy, who had the advantage of speaking Italian and could literally shape the narrative back in America, this was Nadeau's big chance. Geez Louise, CNN is calling!
This is also the origin of the PR Supertanker myth, promoted by Ganong, Vogt and Nadeau.

Early on Nadeau was THE go-to person, with Nick Pisa dn Andrea Vogt.

As the evidence changed, their influence waned. Searching around for an explanation for why their cellphone stopped ringing, or they no longer got texts from John King at CNN..... they invented the PR Supertanker to explain it.

Somehow Marriott had got to the major press outlets in the States, and Marriott`s opinion of Pisa, Vogt, and Nadeau is obvious.

The only question remains..... did Marriott browbeat the Katie Couric`s of the world, the Barbara Walter`s of the world to stay `pro-American`on this, or did those journalists (who have more than half a brain) figure it out for themselves?

I'm glad Nadeau et. al. have this fairy-tale of the PR Supertanker to help them sleep at night.
 
Getting back one's good name

This is so sad.

sigh
RoseMontague,

Is it just possible that Amanda Knox would like to clear her name? Her critics have sometimes suggested that she do so, and a win in court would be both a legal and a moral victory, IMO. Every so often Barbie writes something that is almost OK, and one has hopes for her eventual enlightenment. Then this comes along.
 
There was a PR campaign just not the multi-million dollar one the PGP have been touting for years. There is no doubt that certain members of both sides acted poorly in the early days and that exaggerations took place. The oft repeated hours of interrogation were an exaggeration as well as not one piece of evidence.

I'm sure Anne Bremner and the Knoxes going on TV impacted the coverage here in the US.

Vogt was the first reporter to go with the supertanker and their were reports that Marriott or FOA sent out emails to reporters, which is just fine.

For those that have read a little at .net today and yesterday my opinions of a cetain moderator are being confirmed. She contacted just about everyone she could including the press. In what will become the most embarrassing episode for Vogt she actually quoted said moderator and a fashion house employee that was the "forensic moderator" at the site.

All sides exaggerated their cases and tried to get their spin in the media.

For those interested in this aspect they really should find the SBC Dateline story where Pisa, Vogt, Nadeau and an Italian journalist discuss the case just before the appeal verdict.

Nadeau was out of her element from day one. It's not totally clear why she always seems so spacey but the Dateline show might give a hint.

Nadeau never had any sort of scoop as the British tabs were all over it. The Seattle Times and PI never used her. Ann Wise was one reporting for ABC IIRC and there were reporters for all the major networks.
 
Folks: I have been having a great back-and-forth in PM with a PGP, proof that people CAN have a great conversation about all this - state one's views with conviction and leave all the gratuitous posturing out of it. For that I am profoundly grateful

But we are now stuck on a point. Because of my posts where I make accusations against Mignini, based on his behaviour in the 1:45 am - 5:45 am second interrogation, I was called to task in saying in effect, "Mignini had no reason to suspect Knox of being a liar."

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.
 
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Thanks for the clarification, Grinder.... see below....

There was a PR campaign just not the multi-million dollar one the PGP have been touting for years. There is no doubt that certain members of both sides acted poorly in the early days and that exaggerations took place. The oft repeated hours of interrogation were an exaggeration as well as not one piece of evidence.

I'm sure Anne Bremner and the Knoxes going on TV impacted the coverage here in the US.

Vogt was the first reporter to go with the supertanker and their were reports that Marriott or FOA sent out emails to reporters, which is just fine.

For those that have read a little at .net today and yesterday my opinions of a cetain moderator are being confirmed. She contacted just about everyone she could including the press. In what will become the most embarrassing episode for Vogt she actually quoted said moderator and a fashion house employee that was the "forensic moderator" at the site.

All sides exaggerated their cases and tried to get their spin in the media.

For those interested in this aspect they really should find the SBC Dateline story where Pisa, Vogt, Nadeau and an Italian journalist discuss the case just before the appeal verdict.

Nadeau was out of her element from day one. It's not totally clear why she always seems so spacey but the Dateline show might give a hint.

Nadeau never had any sort of scoop as the British tabs were all over it. The Seattle Times and PI never used her. Ann Wise was one reporting for ABC IIRC and there were reporters for all the major networks.
It is true, there was hyperbole used by all sides. The one about being Knox interrogated for 53 hours straight, was one of the pro-Knox exaggerations. When I first ran into that, I had no context into which to put it....

Then again, there were only 89.5 hours between noon on the 2nd, and 5:30 am on the 6th, and Knox (I believe) was being interviewed/interrogated fore 53 of those. Or am I mistaken?

I still think that "PR Supertanker" is still shorthand for who the American press believed, and is shorthand for the waning influence of Vogt and Nadeau.

Because along with this is the claim that somehow Marriott "hoodwinked" the American press. If one says anything remotely suggestive of Knox's innocence, one if accused of parroting Marriott! (Even Hellmann-Zanetti!)

That's the all inclusive package of the PR Supertanker. I bet Marriott in fact wishes he had that kind of power - he'd be electing the next President, influencing the fate of the Euro, if not the whole of the European Union.

Hell, maybe Marriott will be able to delay Jesus's return, just so that it get's into the proper news cycle!
 
Folks: I have been having a great back-and-forth in PM with a PGP, proof that people CAN have a great conversation about all this - state one's views with conviction and leave all the gratuitous posturing out of it. For that I am profoundly grateful

But we are now stuck on a point. Because of my posts where I make accusations against Mignini, based on his behaviour in the 1:45 am - 5:45 am second interrogation, I was called to task in saying in effect, "Mignini had no reason to suspect Knox of being a liar."

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.

Sounds like one of Harry Rags early lists. Try TJMK or PMF (The Machine). IIRC most are simply getting the sequence of events different, time she got up, etc. Most of this is probably due to stress and a less than perfect memory (rather than lies). The comparison was made using her e-mail to everyone compared to other statements.
 
Folks: I have been having a great back-and-forth in PM with a PGP, proof that people CAN have a great conversation about all this - state one's views with conviction and leave all the gratuitous posturing out of it. For that I am profoundly grateful

But we are now stuck on a point. Because of my posts where I make accusations against Mignini, based on his behaviour in the 1:45 am - 5:45 am second interrogation, I was called to task in saying in effect, "Mignini had no reason to suspect Knox of being a liar."

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.

I can't help you Bill, but actually I think the "lie" you describe is not substantiated. Perhaps she didn't tell everything that she knew, because she wasn't asked, but I haven't seen any evidence that she lied prior to Nov 5/6. Mind you, we don't have transcripts of the interviews ( I don't think anyone except the Italian police do ) only carefully leaked and worked up lies about the interviews that are completely untrustworthy.
 
this may be one of the supposed lies

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.
Bill Williams,

This is difficult, because it often transpires that the PG and PI camps just don't agree on the facts. There was the question of what Amanda really said with respect to Meredith's locking her door. The Italian for "also when" - "anche quando" - is the same as for "even when", so maybe Amanda with her poor Italian was trying to say "Meredith locks her door when she goes to England and also when she takes a shower", while Luca heard "Meredith locks her door when she goes to England and even when she takes a shower", so implying that she locked her door all the time. I am grateful to Katy_did for first pointing this out, and I also note that if others besides Luca heard this exchange, it would not change the argument.
 
Folks: I have been having a great back-and-forth in PM with a PGP, proof that people CAN have a great conversation about all this - state one's views with conviction and leave all the gratuitous posturing out of it. For that I am profoundly grateful

But we are now stuck on a point. Because of my posts where I make accusations against Mignini, based on his behaviour in the 1:45 am - 5:45 am second interrogation, I was called to task in saying in effect, "Mignini had no reason to suspect Knox of being a liar."

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.

Well, whenever a guilter has made a vague claim like that in the past, and I've run it to ground, it's been wildly exaggerated or just plain outright false. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the list of six "lies" will come from two sources.

One will be trying to find absolutely anything Knox said or was claimed to have said, which is contradicted by absolutely anything anyone said or was claimed to have said. Any such contradiction counts as a lie by Knox to guilters, because apparently in guilter-world it's absolutely impossible for Knox or anyone else to err, forget, misspeak or be misquoted so there are no other possible explanations other than "Knox lied!".

The other will be assuming the prosecution narrative was correct and then using this assumption to prove the prosecution narrative was correct. For example "We know the break-in was staged, and Knox said it wasn't, so we know she lied, so she's guilty!".
 
RoseMontague,

Is it just possible that Amanda Knox would like to clear her name? Her critics have sometimes suggested that she do so, and a win in court would be both a legal and a moral victory, IMO. Every so often Barbie writes something that is almost OK, and one has hopes for her eventual enlightenment. Then this comes along.

I don't see how she will clear her name in the eyes of some PGPs. They can always fall back on some conspiracy theory or other to keep their prejudices intact.
 
Folks: I have been having a great back-and-forth in PM with a PGP, proof that people CAN have a great conversation about all this - state one's views with conviction and leave all the gratuitous posturing out of it. For that I am profoundly grateful

But we are now stuck on a point. Because of my posts where I make accusations against Mignini, based on his behaviour in the 1:45 am - 5:45 am second interrogation, I was called to task in saying in effect, "Mignini had no reason to suspect Knox of being a liar."

Well, the PGP claims to have a list somewhere of six (6) verifiable lies Knox told police, prior to the Nov 5/6 interrogation(s). Changes to her "alibi", that sort of thing. But the PGP refuses to list them, saying I should "do your own work".

I have tried. Believe me, I have. Can anyone list for me 6 lies Knox was supposed to have told police prior to Nov 5/6? One that I know of is described by Dempsey in her book. Knox lies to police early on about Meredith's drug use/sex life.... strangely, becoming the first in a long line of people careful about Kercher's memory.

Please help me.

Bill, if I had to guess, they're probably referring to things she wrote in her email back home. I can't remember off-hand specifically what's in there that might be a lie, but I remember PGP in the past bringing up inconsistencies between the email and her testimony. Reading the email would be a good start. The problem with a lot of that stuff is it's hard to classify any of it as being for a fact, "a lie".

Oh wait, I think I remember one of them now ... "Amanda lied when she said Meredith always locked her door". That sounds like one of them.
 
I don't see how she will clear her name in the eyes of some PGPs. They can always fall back on some conspiracy theory or other to keep their prejudices intact.

Exactly. I think to the general public, her name has been cleared with the acquittal. It's only the people who still think she's guilty who feel she has a need to clear her name. I find their suggestion disingenuous, because IMO, what they're really after is for her to maintain media attention, thus generating more fodder for the innuendo mill. If and when she actually does release a book, I have no doubt that everything she says about her experience will just be taken as more lies anyway. As much as the PGP say they would never read a book by her or Sollecito, I think it's pretty obvious that they will need something down the line to complain about (and read too much into) in order to keep PMF running. I can already see the TJMK spin and detailed dissection of such books.
 
Well, whenever a guilter has made a vague claim like that in the past, and I've run it to ground, it's been wildly exaggerated or just plain outright false. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the list of six "lies" will come from two sources.

One will be trying to find absolutely anything Knox said or was claimed to have said, which is contradicted by absolutely anything anyone said or was claimed to have said. Any such contradiction counts as a lie by Knox to guilters, because apparently in guilter-world it's absolutely impossible for Knox or anyone else to err, forget, misspeak or be misquoted so there are no other possible explanations other than "Knox lied!".

The other will be assuming the prosecution narrative was correct and then using this assumption to prove the prosecution narrative was correct. For example "We know the break-in was staged, and Knox said it wasn't, so we know she lied, so she's guilty!".
Although the PGP hasn't said it, I think one of the statement that they see as a "lie" is Filomena's and Knox's disagreement on whether or not Meredith habitually locked her door.

You have to agree that this point fits neither of the scenarios ("sources") you think the PGP is operating from? N'est pas?

My suspicion is that most of these so called lies are, in fact, Knox continually stating on six occasions, matter of factly, "Oh, I was at Raffaele's all night." If one assumes guilt, then they've caught her in a lie.

A variation of this is that it was only late in the game when Raffaele would return to the original alibi, ie. that they were together all night. Raffaele was not exactly speedy at abandoning the "well, if i were asleep, then of course she could have been gone...." meme.

But I am still holding out for the outright "lies". One's that do not presuppose guilt, but rather the lies themselves make one (like Mignini) genuinely suspicious without actualy suspicion of guilt. I hope I've phrased that all right to get the meaning through.

I'm still taken with Harry Rag's listing of 13 lies - and 11 of them are lies he attributes to Sollecito!

I it still a mystery to me why PGP resist listing these, yet still claim them as basic to the reason they hate Knox.
 
Sounds like one of Harry Rags early lists. Try TJMK or PMF (The Machine). IIRC most are simply getting the sequence of events different, time she got up, etc. Most of this is probably due to stress and a less than perfect memory (rather than lies). The comparison was made using her e-mail to everyone compared to other statements.
As mentioned, I have Harry's list. It has 13 lies, 11 of them actually lies attributed to Raffaele. Of the 2 attributed to Knox (neither are the "door is always locked") one is also arguably Raffaele's.

The 13th is "Knox's lie about Lumumba." Gee, it's good Harry choose the only Amanda lie to be a non-controversial one!!!!!!!! (I'm joking!)

However, it is said that the reason PGP hate Knox so, is "all the lies" she told. So far I have only come up with 2 "possibles" in the Nov 2-5 period.

Can no one provide a list?

I am serious when I say I am on extremely good terms in PM with the PGP person. This alone is a study on people's on-line personna.... I quite like the guy and we have a lot in common.

Not on this case, but we could be friends if not for both of us getting in a lather about this.
 
RoseMontague,

Is it just possible that Amanda Knox would like to clear her name? Her critics have sometimes suggested that she do so, and a win in court would be both a legal and a moral victory, IMO. Every so often Barbie writes something that is almost OK, and one has hopes for her eventual enlightenment. Then this comes along.

Yep.

My conclusion is that it is Ms. Nadeau that is seeking some attention with this one.
 
As mentioned, I have Harry's list. It has 13 lies, 11 of them actually lies attributed to Raffaele. Of the 2 attributed to Knox (neither are the "door is always locked") one is also arguably Raffaele's.

The 13th is "Knox's lie about Lumumba." Gee, it's good Harry choose the only Amanda lie to be a non-controversial one!!!!!!!! (I'm joking!)

However, it is said that the reason PGP hate Knox so, is "all the lies" she told. So far I have only come up with 2 "possibles" in the Nov 2-5 period.

Can no one provide a list?

I am serious when I say I am on extremely good terms in PM with the PGP person. This alone is a study on people's on-line personna.... I quite like the guy and we have a lot in common.

Not on this case, but we could be friends if not for both of us getting in a lather about this.

Bill --

I think it is fine that you are able to have a give and take with a PGP person, on PM or otherwise. My only comment is that I find it a bit of an odd debate for someone to claim a point (such as the 6 lies), and then refuse to tell you what they are, saying you have to do your own work. Isn't it this person's debating point? If it exists, can't they just tell you?

To illustrate, imagine the current US Presidential race, with all the debates.

Candidate 1: "Candidate #2 lied about his support for XYZ."
Candidate 2: "When? That is an unfounded charge!"
Candidate 1: "Look it up yourself, and the voters too. I am not going to do the work for you."

Does this make any sense? Just saying.
 
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