Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[bolint]

Why didn't Amanda give the police hints that it was Rudy? Why would she have left the evidence of Rudy if she didn't want him caught?

Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely.
However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet.

"I see that now in an expanding round of racist charges against Amanda it is speculated that she knew she was being recorded and therefore named Shaky in a conversation in order to have the police suspect him."

She did not name Shaky in that conversation, Raffaele was guessing who she was talking about (which is in itself interesting). He came up with the name and person.

In terms of the overall theory of the PGP this is the greatest single weakness. Why set him up and then finger others?

She couldn'r finger Rudy, because he had been really there and his name or person did not emerge at that time. Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.
Naming Lumumba was a panic decision on seeing Raffaele's support evaporate.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Bill,

Please provide a non-Dempsey proof of Filomena sneaking into her room the next day and taking her laptop. My memory of this event is that she went into her room at the request of the PP and at that time or just after that retrieved the laptop.

Just struck me that Nina Burleigh's book spoke about F sneaking back in, taking jewelry and laptop, and "lawyering up"---but am too ill with flu to look it up now...

 

[Grinder]

I have never had a desire to meet with Amanda, but now that I read "elsewhere" how brilliant she is, perhaps I'll reconsider.

I now believe that Amanda had this plan to murder Meredith even before she met her. Amanda picked the cottage room as the perfect place to murder someone and a British girl would be perfect to avenge WWI and WWII for her Germans. She spotted Raffaele and immediately knew he was the perfect accomplice. This without knowing that he had three or four knives. Once she had reeled him in, she knew just who to add to the mix so that not only would she be able to kill a dreaded Brit but put the blame on an inferior Schwarzer. She never contacted him (Rudy) or was seen with him, save for a couple of times that seemed innocent enough.

She had decided that Halloween would be the perfect time while still in Seattle. In fact, she had practiced a prank a year before on April Fools' Day but Halloween had a better feel. She had studied Italian culture and knew that all of the natives would be out of their rental homes over the Halloween weekend.

It was important to her to involve as many people of color as possible as she had read Helter Skelter and knew SHE could precipitate a race war. First she cleverly had one of the English girls mention Shaky to bring him into the scheme. Not wanting to be apparent she only spoke in secret with Raffaele about him knowing full well that the police would now bring him in and he would be caught in her web. She, being informed by her cartwheel police friend as what was happening, knew Hicham had been questioned and released which forced her into the Patrick twist.

This was a little tricky because she had to get the police to name him or at a minimum force her to name him. She once again pulled it off and even got herself arrested. This element of her plan was so evil and involved it is difficult to describe. She knew she would be convicted in the court of the first instance but then released on appeal because all the judges would be used up except for Hellmann. He with the Germanic name that although referring to lightness would be misinterpreted by online chatter as referring to the devil which would help her story to be sold after acquittal.

The most brilliant part was leaving Rudy's evidence behind but never pointing the police in his direction.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out why that was so brilliant.

 

[Bill Williams]

She did have. The postals let her in.

Give me a break. Everybody was in the cottage when the murder was discovered.

Not acc. to Dempsey. Filomena had two entrances to the cottage after the murder, and knox had at least one. We are talking about two different time periods.

 

[Bill Williams]

That's a good question. We know Filomena told them about the laptop being in her room from her testimony about the glass being on top of it. We know from the police photographs that the laptop was removed early on the 2nd. I cannot conceive of the police letting anyone back into the cottage after discovering the body. But it would have been easy for Filomena to slip into her room on the way out to grab something essential.

Acc. to Dempsey that's not what happened. The postals seemed to be in as much of a panic as anyone. Aside from not properly securing the scene, allowing both Knox and Romanelli to tromp through the place, witnesses at trial said that one of the postals actually went into Mez's room to lift the duvet to see.

That is completely understandable - I mean, just how do you confrim the well-being of someone other than by doing what the postal (it was claimed at trial) did?

However, forensically that one action is disasterous.... if minutes before Raffaele had been kicking at the door, and then 47 days later a miniscule amount of his DNA is found on the bra-clasp, and the bra-clasp was kicked to and fro in those 47 days, is it hard to imagine DNA getting on to it? (This is completely aside from the fact that if RS had, in fact, participated in the murder, you'd laugh at only finding one speck of DNA in what was a battle zone.)

I think this is the point. Filomena at the very least, accessed the scene TWICE, after it had been "secured". The postal police lied about a lot of things, not the least of which is how one of them quite understandibly went in to check on the body. Why is this so hard to fathom?

 

[smkovalinksy]

I have never had a desire to meet with Amanda, but now that I read "elsewhere" how brilliant she is, perhaps I'll reconsider.

I now believe that Amanda had this plan to murder Meredith even before she met her. Amanda picked the cottage room as the perfect place to murder someone and a British girl would be perfect to avenge WWI and WWII for her Germans. She spotted Raffaele and immediately knew he was the perfect accomplice. This without knowing that he had three or four knives. Once she had reeled him in, she knew just who to add to the mix so that not only would she be able to kill a dreaded Brit but put the blame on an inferior Schwarzer. She never contacted him (Rudy) or was seen with him, save for a couple of times that seemed innocent enough.

She had decided that Halloween would be the perfect time while still in Seattle. In fact, she had practiced a prank a year before on April Fools' Day but Halloween had a better feel. She had studied Italian culture and knew that all of the natives would be out of their rental homes over the Halloween weekend.

It was important to her to involve as many people of color as possible as she had read Helter Skelter and knew SHE could precipitate a race war. First she cleverly had one of the English girls mention Shaky to bring him into the scheme. Not wanting to be apparent she only spoke in secret with Raffaele about him knowing full well that the police would now bring him in and he would be caught in her web. She, being informed by her cartwheel police friend as what was happening, knew Hicham had been questioned and released which forced her into the Patrick twist.

This was a little tricky because she had to get the police to name him or at a minimum force her to name him. She once again pulled it off and even got herself arrested. This element of her plan was so evil and involved it is difficult to describe. She knew she would be convicted in the court of the first instance but then released on appeal because all the judges would be used up except for Hellmann. He with the Germanic name that although referring to lightness would be misinterpreted by online chatter as referring to the devil which would help her story to be sold after acquittal.

The most brilliant part was leaving Rudy's evidence behind but never pointing the police in his direction.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out why that was so brilliant.

Yes, nowhere in the annals of American criminal history is there anyone quite so diabolically ingenious as Knox. Charles Manson could have learned a thing or two from her; He predates her yet is dwarfed by her cunning. Feminism has a kind of victory in Knox.

 

[Dan O.]

Bill, I don't disagree with any of the evidence you have presented. I simply disagree that there is sufficient evidence to draw a firm conclusion on this point. And the point is really a minor one of whether the postals are ore or less competent than we already believe.

This is one of those points where my solution is to document what we have and move on. If you have a quote and page number from Dempsey, that would be great. Otherwise it can always be looked up later if necessary. Keep up the good work.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

She couldn'r finger Rudy, because he had been really there and his name or person did not emerge at that time. Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.
Naming Lumumba was a panic decision on seeing Raffaele's support evaporate.

In this scenario Amanda would have known that if she just sat tight for a few more days they'd identify Rudy from his DNA and/or fingerprint, especially given that you have her deliberately leaving his poo unflushed.

Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense in your scenario for Amanda to have dropped Raffaele in it, instead of trying to drag in Lumumba? If she thought Raffaele had dropped her in it, and he was actually there and in on it, what sense does it make to finger Lumumba?

I'm reminded of Monty Python's exploding penguin sketch, where an old lady shouts "BURMA!" for no reason, and when asked why responds "I panicked". That's the level of reasoning I'm seeing when guilters use "she panicked!" as an all-purpose gap-filler to explain anything they need Amanda to have done. She panicked and fingered Lumumba, panicked and went to Quintavalle's for bleach, panicked and did something with the mop, panicked and murdered Meredith, panic panic panic! It's the one-size-fits-all explanation for absolutely anything that otherwise makes no sense in a narrative where Amanda is guilty.

 

[Murdoch]

Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely.
However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet.




She did not name Shaky in that conversation, Raffaele was guessing who she was talking about (which is in itself interesting). He came up with the name and person.



She couldn'r finger Rudy, because he had been really there and his name or person did not emerge at that time. Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.
Naming Lumumba was a panic decision on seeing Raffaele's support evaporate.

Read Follain, pages 189/190 where he reveals the conversation Amanda had with Curt after finding out it's Rudy the police are looking for.

She first says "Ohh my God. I mean, just the idea of knowing who might have done it..... I mean I know him, I saw him before, I spoke with him a bit before.... Ohh my God!"

"Ohh my God! What a bastard!"

Does that sound like discussing Rudy is taboo??

 

[Bill Williams]

Not acc. to Dempsey. Filomena had two entrances to the cottage after the murder, and knox had at least one. We are talking about two different time periods.

I'm quoting my own message to say to Grinder, respectfully, that I am satisfied about Dempsey's reference to Filomena's scoffing her own laptop. If he/she is not satisfied, then I'll just have to live with that. I suppose there might or might not be some other reference, but it is not my intent here to win an argument. It is my intent here to understand the crime - for myself.

If my references are not full enough.... well, I'll just sit back knowing that there are people out there in cyberspace who think I am full of it.

Me, I am satisfied.

 

[Bill Williams]

Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely.
However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet.

She did not name Shaky in that conversation, Raffaele was guessing who she was talking about (which is in itself interesting). He came up with the name and person.

She couldn'r finger Rudy, because he had been really there and his name or person did not emerge at that time. Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.
Naming Lumumba was a panic decision on seeing Raffaele's support evaporate.

I am in a quandry.... I am extremely grateful that a PGP is posting here. I am confident that the back and forth can be maintained without a bun fight breaking out.

However, the quandry becomes in the specifics in how someone like me would respond to the above.

The first question is: how on earth COULD one now such things as, "Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely. However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet."

This is the very problem I have in even responding to such claims. In the history of psychology, for instance, therapeutic practioneers could mee t with serious disturbed people for years, and NOT be able to make claims like the above about someone they know well.

So I am hoping that the poster can say: "yes, I have had opportunity to meet with Knox in therapeutic sessions for about a year, and came to this conclusion because of that."

Please, please do not tell me that the only source of information is what you've read in the papers or on-line. If this is the case, how on earth can one make such proclamations simply because of a news report, or seeing a picture?

Please show peer-reviewed research that makes that possible?

 

[anglolawyer]

There is some confusion about a photo from Prof Vinci's demonstration. http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Vinci.pdf

The photo shows MK's leg on TOP of the duvet. Her leg was indeed on top of a portion of the duvet. The photo shows the postion she was found in after the duvet was pulled off to the left to uncover her.


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...86599.45660.106344459390034&type=3&permPage=1


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...86599.45660.106344459390034&type=3&permPage=1

Thanks for the clarification. I have thought about what happened to result in the picture we see. I think the victim finished up lying on her left side after the assault. Rudy still having sexual intent, mopped up some of the off-putting blood with towels and also covered it with the duvet on the side between her and the bed. Then he pulled her by her right arm and leg (which are stretched out, away from her body) on to her back, leaving her partly atop the edge of the duvet which was thrown over her later, also by Rudy of course.

Off course, covering the blood undermines his ridiculous claim that he was trying to help her, not that mopping it would have done her much good either but his actions seem to have been taken into account by some who would paint him as the good guy.

 

[anglolawyer]

I have never had a desire to meet with Amanda, but now that I read "elsewhere" how brilliant she is, perhaps I'll reconsider.

I now believe that Amanda had this plan to murder Meredith even before she met her. Amanda picked the cottage room as the perfect place to murder someone and a British girl would be perfect to avenge WWI and WWII for her Germans. She spotted Raffaele and immediately knew he was the perfect accomplice. This without knowing that he had three or four knives. Once she had reeled him in, she knew just who to add to the mix so that not only would she be able to kill a dreaded Brit but put the blame on an inferior Schwarzer. She never contacted him (Rudy) or was seen with him, save for a couple of times that seemed innocent enough.

She had decided that Halloween would be the perfect time while still in Seattle. In fact, she had practiced a prank a year before on April Fools' Day but Halloween had a better feel. She had studied Italian culture and knew that all of the natives would be out of their rental homes over the Halloween weekend.

It was important to her to involve as many people of color as possible as she had read Helter Skelter and knew SHE could precipitate a race war. First she cleverly had one of the English girls mention Shaky to bring him into the scheme. Not wanting to be apparent she only spoke in secret with Raffaele about him knowing full well that the police would now bring him in and he would be caught in her web. She, being informed by her cartwheel police friend as what was happening, knew Hicham had been questioned and released which forced her into the Patrick twist.

This was a little tricky because she had to get the police to name him or at a minimum force her to name him. She once again pulled it off and even got herself arrested. This element of her plan was so evil and involved it is difficult to describe. She knew she would be convicted in the court of the first instance but then released on appeal because all the judges would be used up except for Hellmann. He with the Germanic name that although referring to lightness would be misinterpreted by online chatter as referring to the devil which would help her story to be sold after acquittal.

The most brilliant part was leaving Rudy's evidence behind but never pointing the police in his direction.

I'll leave it to the reader to figure out why that was so brilliant.

That is so completely ridiculous it must be true.

 

[bolint]

Read Follain, pages 189/190 where he reveals the conversation Amanda had with Curt after finding out it's Rudy the police are looking for.

She first says "Ohh my God. I mean, just the idea of knowing who might have done it..... I mean I know him, I saw him before, I spoke with him a bit before.... Ohh my God!"

"Ohh my God! What a bastard!"

Does that sound like discussing Rudy is taboo??

It was after Rudy's name became news. My taboo claim is for the period before that.

 

[bolint]

The first question is: how on earth COULD one now such things as, "Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely. However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet."

This is the very problem I have in even responding to such claims. In the history of psychology, for instance, therapeutic practioneers could mee t with serious disturbed people for years, and NOT be able to make claims like the above about someone they know well.

So I am hoping that the poster can say: "yes, I have had opportunity to meet with Knox in therapeutic sessions for about a year, and came to this conclusion because of that."

Please, please do not tell me that the only source of information is what you've read in the papers or on-line. If this is the case, how on earth can one make such proclamations simply because of a news report, or seeing a picture?

Please show peer-reviewed research that makes that possible?

Well, Amanda did not mention the name of Rudy to the police before her arrest, that is sure, because the police learnt of Rudy from Bonassi (the plantation master downstairs)

And after her arrest she availed herself of the right to silence.

When do you think she spoke about Rudy to the police?

 

[bolint]

Did they hug each other?

When I asked it at the time of the appeal sentencing I was sternly rebuked here how they did not have time to hug each other at the "moment of truth".

Well, months have passed since that time and recently we have learned from the horse's mouth (Raffaele) that they have never communicated since then, neither by phone, nor by email, nor by anything.

Not a single contact.

 

[Bill Williams]

It was after Rudy's name became news. My taboo claim is for the period before that.

Is this just a coffee-party claim, something you'd say to a friend because you saw a picture and have an opinion? Or is it based on something solid?

I mean, "taboo"? I think this case has suffered enough from folk who saw a news report and came to some psychological theory of what happened.

You do know there was a real death involved here, and that real people suffered unjustly in jail as a result?

 

[anglolawyer]

It was after Rudy's name became news. My taboo claim is for the period before that.

Maybe you could explain what you mean by 'taboo'. A taboo as I understand it is something which is socially prohibited. That doesn't apply here as Amanda was not a member of a society in which Rudy's name could not be mentioned (or maybe you're saying she was). Assuming no such society of Rudy non-namers existed, whence came this taboo?

 

[geebee2]

Well, Amanda did not mention the name of Rudy to the police before her arrest, that is sure, because the police learnt of Rudy from Bonassi (the plantation master downstairs)

And after her arrest she availed herself of the right to silence.

When do you think she spoke about Rudy to the police?

She didn't know Rudy's name, as it seems very few people did ( she explained this in her final speech to the appeal court ). He was just "like many people around, a face".

Patrick King has made a good account of what is known about Rudy here

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981070613

He explains that

Rudy played basketball at the Piazza Grimana basketball court right across the street from 7 via Della Pergola, where he was known to all of the other basketball players, but none knew his real name. Some called him, Body Roga, after the Serbian basketball star, Deja Bodiroga, but most called him The Baron, because they found it difficult to say the name Byron. Guede styled himself after NBA star, Byron Scott.

It seems that few people knew Rudy's real name.

 

[Grinder]

Rudy was taboo for her. She had never mentioned his name before he was caught, even after that she did it very rarely.
However, she did give indirect hints by not flushing the toilet.
She couldn'r finger Rudy, because he had been really there and his name or person did not emerge at that time. Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.
Naming Lumumba was a panic decision on seeing Raffaele's support evaporate.

Please! She could have listed off Rudy along everyone else that she had met downstairs. Why did they clean their evidence and not Rudy's if they didn't intend for him to be caught? Why leave the poop in the toilet, the shoe prints (they would have seen them when using the desk lamp, right?)and everything else if they didn't intend to point the police in that direction? They could have named him while being taped in the waiting room. As an aside, interesting they were recorded in a waiting room but not in the interrogation room.

The "panic" reaction would be to name the person that was at the cottage when the murder took place. The point made about "panic" being the filled in blank for all things guilty is spot on.

The PGP just can't put together their theories in one narrative that makes sense. She didn't mention Rudy because she barely knew him and didn't have anything to do with a clean-up that never happened.

Naming him would have really implicated her deeply.

If Shaky had done it would Sophie be in trouble because she named him? No. If Amanda had named Rudy as a downstairs visitor, how would that be suspicious?

If any PGP can explain why the kids would have left Rudy's evidence and yet not lead the police to him, please explain without the word panic. While you're at it explain why they didn't make up an alibi that they could both stick to? Why is the fact that the English girls had their dinner starting from 5:30 to 6:30 not suspicious?