• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Archaeology and the Hebrew Bible

Yes, it most certainly IS my thread, and I'd thank you to respect it.

Well, no, I don't think it works that way. One can start a thread, but one can't control its content. Nor do we hold property rights on the threads we start. Once discussion and debate begin, the thread becomes the property of all those posting on it.

You certainly have the right to ask posters not to derail the thread, and, in fact, I believe the moderators of this forum will even step in to enforce such an action. Beyond that, however, it's simply not the property of those of us who start threads.
 
I think the 1993 discovery of the Tel Dan stela and its "Bayt Daud" ( House of David) has been met with different responses, depending on one's paradigm. It will come up infrequently among more liberal-minded scholars who follow the Copenhagen school of Biblical Studies. The inscription doesn't find a place easily in their scholarship, plain and simple.

The funny part to me is that the more conservative scholars have moved on to something else (I'm thinking of Kenneth Kitchen).

The most energy seems to be expended by scholars in between the extremes, like the William Devers of the world. It's interesting, the development of writing on the inscription has changed from denial and accusations of forgery to the wider variety of views that exist now. The predominent view is moving toward legitimacy and the plain sense translation of the words - "house of david".

I agree. The question is: Did the House of David, however briefly, hold on to a united kingdom of Israel? Or was this all propaganda? Whenever I'm looking into a historical kernel behind a legendary realm I use three criteria to judge the likelihood of of its historicity:

1) Plausibility: It's plausible that a city built on the Dardanelles, in a position to intercept and control major trade routes might grow wealthy, excite the envy and enmity of some of its neighbors and eventually be sacked by them. Thus Troy is plausible. It's implausible that a large Island the size and shape of the state of Colorado, located in the North Atlantic would sink in a single day and night. Thus, Atlantis is implausible. It's plausible that, at a time when Egypt was in a state of decrepitude, and Assyria hadn't yet begun its Iron Age expansion, a pocket empire could briefly hold sway in the Leant. So, the mini-empire of David and Solomon is plausible.

2) Independent attestation. The only ancient source for the myth of Atlantis was Plato. All other writings from ancient time were based on his. Thus, there is no independent attestation that Atlantis existed. Troy, on the other hand is referred to by Homer, Hesiod and, in picture form, by a number of vase painters. One vase from Mykonos, dated to ca. 800 BCE, depicts the Trojan horse being taken into the city. In addition, we have Hittite diplomatic texts referring to a city that is probably Troy.

3) Archaeological evidence: Zip for Atlantis vs. the nine cities of Troy.

With respect to the existence of David and the House of David, we now have another reference outside the Bible. Likewise, the Tel Dan inscription can be taken as some form of archaeological proof. However, that's only proof of the existence of someone named David and the likelihood that his descendants ruled Judah, but not necessarily Judah and Israel.
 
Yes, it most certainly IS my thread, and I'd thank you to respect it.


Nonsense.

You posted a silly OP, starting this most misbegotten thread.

Anyone may post in it as long as they don't violate the rules.

None of the rules requires us to respect nonsense or delusion.
 
Nonsense.

You posted a silly OP, starting this most misbegotten thread.

Anyone may post in it as long as they don't violate the rules.

None of the rules requires us to respect nonsense or delusion.
Welcome to ignore. Now you can be pointless with yourself.
 
Last edited:
Well, no, I don't think it works that way. One can start a thread, but one can't control its content. Nor do we hold property rights on the threads we start. Once discussion and debate begin, the thread becomes the property of all those posting on it.

You certainly have the right to ask posters not to derail the thread, and, in fact, I believe the moderators of this forum will even step in to enforce such an action. Beyond that, however, it's simply not the property of those of us who start threads.
Certainly, I wasn't asserting property rights, and he knew it. He was trying to troll and make the thread about him. I'm ready to move on. I've ignored him.
 
Certainly, I wasn't asserting property rights, and he knew it. He was trying to troll and make the thread about him. I'm ready to move on. I've ignored him.

there's many things you could call Akh, seer, wise man, egyptologist, devoted to aten, bearded wonder, fool, friend, wizard,

but Troll

no, I don't think so
;)
 
there's many things you could call Akh, seer, wise man, egyptologist, devoted to aten, bearded wonder, fool, friend, wizard,

but Troll

no, I don't think so
;)
I wasn't talking about Akhenaten. I was talking about Complexity.
 
there's many things you could call Akh, seer, wise man, egyptologist, devoted to aten cats (which are sort of egypty), bearded wonder, fool, friend, wizard,

but Troll

no, I don't think so (I'm being quite presumptuous in leaving this in);)


I've taken the vast liberty of adapting your response given the new target (me).

Correct me as you will, Marduk the Magnificent.

You can call me Akh if you really feel the need to.
 
I've tried jumping into some existing threads in the past few months, thinking that I could contribute to a lively debate in a constructive way. However, I found quickly that, for lack of better descriptions, ideological battlelines had already been drawn, the well had been poisoned, and the earth scorched (to borrow the last phrase from a fellow JREFer).

The main mistake I made was in running onto a battlefield where neither "side" was interested in conversing with someone who was carrying neither one of their standards. I paid for it in verbal scars, to say the least. There is a lot of passion in those threads, which is admirable. But what I'd like to do here is to offer something a bit calmer, looking at evidence as it is, without grand proclamations, without conclusion-jumping, and without verbal abuse.

If "passion" creates "verbal abuse" then it is anything but admirable (where it creates that abuse, that is).
 
I've got a great idea. Perhaps we could get beck to discussing archaeology and hebrew Scriptures.
 
Didn't those guys diminish Solomon's temple to a slightly more pretentious pile of rocks on an insignificant hill in an area the powers-that-were considered just a PITA?
Pretty much like Jerusalem has always been.

Looking back over the beginning of this thread, I found the quote above. Regarding Solomon's temple, It's interesting to not that its dimensions as listed in 1 Kings aren't all that impressive (1 Kings 6:2):

The house which King Solomon built for the LORD was sixty cubits [90 ft.] long, twenty cubits [30 ft.] wide, and thirty cubits [45 ft. or between four and five stories] high.

So, we're talking about a four to five story, 2,700 sq. ft. building. Verse 3 gives a few dimensions of divisions of this structure, the vestibule, nave and holy of holies. Succeeding verses describe side buildings attached to the main temple. So, even according to the Bible, Solomon's temple was no big deal, certainly not a rival to ziggurats of Babylon or the pyramids of Egypt.

ETA: According to Wikipedia the dimensions of the base of the Parthenon are (measured at the stylobate, with some rounding) 228 ft. by about 100 ft., or 22,800 sq. ft., making Solomon's temple puny by comparison.
 
Last edited:
Why are you typing 'LORD'?

That's how it's rendered in this particular verse. Whenever you see it thus rendered (all in caps) what it means is that in the original Hebrew the word was YHWH (or rather, the Hebrew letters Yodh-Hey-Vau-Hey), which is thought to have been vocalized as Yahweh. By the time the Hebrew scriptures were put in their official form as the Masoretc Text (CE 600 - 900), YHWH, God's personal name, was considered too holy to be profaned by sinful human lips. Since the scriptures were to be recited, however, the word "Lord" was spoken. Thus, in the Old Testament you will see the word variously rendered as "Lord" (He. adonai) and LORD. The latter rendition means that the word originally there was YHWH.

ETA: To indicate that "Lord" was to be said, rather than "Yahweh," The masorettes inserted the vowel points for adonai under the letters YHWH. Some Protestant translators seem to have taken this to mean that the personal name of gGod consisted of the consonants YHW(or V)H + the vowels from adonai: a- o ai, or Yahovai, hence Jehovah.
 
Last edited:
Why are you typing 'LORD'?

its a convention adopted by the Heebs to avoid upsetting anyone upstairs
;)

blas·phe·my said:
 noun, plural -mies.
1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2. Judaism .
a. an act of cursing or reviling God.
b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.


saying his actual name could get you stoned apparently

 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom