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Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

So you're saying that an aircraft of which there was possibly only 1 in the whole world, and maybe not even that, at that time is less rare than something which this book describes thusly:


You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.
 
And that's not mentioning the fact that you're claiming that this particular plane, of which there was only one in the world, was a foreign spy plane in US airspace in broad daylight, which then scarpered. So your hypothesis relies on a foreign power using a US plane for their covert operations, and carrying their covert operations out in broad daylight. While a radar test was going on.


And that aircraft actually took off from a US base, and despite its secret mission it was using special smoke-producing fuel, and its devastatingly cunning escape plan was to turn directly towards an approaching US Electronic Warfare/Special Electronics aircraft whilst making smoke.
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.


Shovel.jpg
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.

You must have missed all of the rest of my post.
 
And that aircraft actually took off from a US base, and despite its secret mission it was using special smoke-producing fuel, and its devastatingly cunning escape plan was to turn directly towards an approaching US Electronic Warfare/Special Electronics aircraft whilst making smoke.

If it was using a super secret cloaking device that made it look like a very rare lenticular cloud illusion which is often seen...
 
I've shown how the numbers can add up
You've done no such thing.
You've never shown a single calculation beyond "It could have been"
I offered to measure your diagram and add some number to it, you ignored that offer.

if we consider certain statements of the witnesses combined with the timing and movement of the mystery aircraft and the airborne observers
But that's not what you've done. You've embellished what information they have given and ignored the majority of it.

... plus if we add in that huge amount of error you say is always possible with human estimates and memory, the numbers could conceivably fit perfectly ... at least as well as the others posed so far.
Wow, you really don't get it do you?

If the margin of error is big enough to just make stuff up, then let's presume they were totally wrong about everything and that they were sat on the big wheel at Santa Monica pier eating ice cream. What they saw wasn't hovering or moving West, it was swimming in the ocean and had a large dorsal fin... That fit within the margin for error of human being totally wrong about stuff.

The thing is, people aren't only wrong when you want them to be.
Us helpful sceptics know about and understand human fallibility, but don't often presume people are wrong until there is evidence to show they are wrong. In these reports, there is evidence to show at least some of the information is wrong. By working out the difference in the individual accounts against the physical possibility of what they claim, it is possible to get a handle on how wrong they possibly are and find margins of error for each individual piece of information.

You have spectacularly failed to do any of that preferring instead to simply believe they are wrong just the exact correct amount for you to be right.
 
Well, you've done the work of applying your hypothesis to the model, but we're seeing lots of discrepancies that need to be accounted for, in order for your hypothesis to stand. All the questions people have been asking you are related to information in your hypothesis that makes assumptions not borne out by the evidence, or else flatly contradicts the evidence.

Right now it appears that you're cherry picking bits and pieces of the testimony that support the idea of an unidentified aircraft and just discarding the rest, and you're also inventing stuff that is neither in the hypothesis nor supported by known facts.

Remember what I said about "Occam's Razor"?

  • Eliminating hypotheses that don't fit the model, that contradict the evidence, or that require assumptions unsubstantiated by evidence (a.k.a. "Occam's Razor").

If your hypothesis doesn't fit the model, contradicts the evidence, and/or requires assumptions unsubstantiated by evidence, then you've got to cut out the parts that don't jibe with the evidence, then rework the hypothesis.

Sometimes you might keep on trying, but eventually find it's simply impossible to make that specific hypothesis fit the model and the evidence. In cases like that it's often best to recognize that the hypothesis is probably just wrong, and maybe it's time to investigate another approach to a solution.

That's why I said that a good investigator shouldn't really care whether the sighting is explained by a super-rare experimental bomber jet, an as-yet-unknown spy plane, a missile test launch, a weirdly-shaped cloud. The only thing the honest investigator should care about is following the proper procedure, and making damn sure that whatever conclusion lines up with all the verifiable evidence.

Another thing the investigator must keep in mind is to be as conservative as possible with one's assumptions, because the more unusual/extraordinary the conclusion, the more definitive evidence it will require to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you're alleging it's a spy plane, then you need to provide objective evidence that such a spy plane existed in the first place, with the described appearance. You also need something much more objective than just eyewitness reports. A spy plane flying low enough to be spotted by observers on the ground, just a few miles from a major metropolis during the height of the Cold War would be highly unusual, as most spy planes of that period tended to operate at extremely high altitudes. Any unauthorized plane flying that close to a major metropolis and an AFB where missile testing was conducted would also have been picked up on many radar covering the area, and would have undoubtedly caused the USAF to scramble its own fighters to intercept. It would have been a major incident indeed, well documented with volumes of paperwork. How do you account for the lack of response from the USAF air defense forces?

Remember ECREE? That's where it fits in here. If you're going to say something like, "it was a rare experimental aircraft," "it was a spy plane," or "OMG - sea witch!" then the first thing you're going to be expected to show is some damn conclusive, objective evidence. If you cannot reliably provide that evidence, then you must breathe a deep sigh and admit to yourself that your hypothesis is unsupported and therefore most likely wrong.
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.
So all the witnesses were totally wrong about what they saw now and even though they mentioned a flying wing, and you used that part of their statement to back up your theory. Now you're saying that was all wrong and that they all saw something that not a single one of the witnesses reported seeing... even though they were experienced and qualified observers.

This just gets funnier and funnier... no need even for any picture gags at the moment.
 
But that's not what you've done. You've embellished what information they have given and ignored the majority of it.

Plus, "the timing and movement of the mystery aircraft" is something that ufology has completely made up. The only information about the movement of the object in the actual witness statements is that it wasn't.
 
I've shown how the numbers can add up if we consider certain statements of the witnesses combined with the timing and movement of the mystery aircraft and the airborne observers ... plus if we add in that huge amount of error you say is always possible with human estimates and memory, the numbers could conceivably fit perfectly ... at least as well as the others posed so far.


No, you absolutely have not. It is a lie to suggest you have made any quantitative argument at all. As a cooperative, helpful skeptic I'd like to offer this very constructive contribution: Stop lying.

Once again you have demonstrated the utter and complete failure of claiming to add things up when you haven't, but maybe you'd like to try a simple problem with dividing. Of all the things seen apparently flying, things which were at first not identified but eventually determined to be a particular thing, how many of them turned out to be alien craft? My offer to help you through this still stands.
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.


You haven't been able to demonstrate quantitatively or even plausibly that Kelly Johnson could even see your WAG from his position without binoculars. If there's one thing we can be certain of it's this: Kelly Johnson did not possess magical powers of superhuman vision.
 
A lenticular cloud is not an illusion. And the explanation you've offered requires the addition of far more WAGs, unqualified assertions, and unsupported assumptions than the amount of actual known information it includes.
Not only that, it can be safely ascertained that lenticular clouds actually existed in 1953. ;)
 
And that aircraft actually took off from a US base, and despite its secret mission it was using special smoke-producing fuel, and its devastatingly cunning escape plan was to turn directly towards an approaching US Electronic Warfare/Special Electronics aircraft whilst making smoke.
Chocks away!
plane.gif
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.

The very first B-52 rolled off the line in 1952 in Seattle, the first three were used by Boeing as test beds. The USAF received the first one in '54 and it went operational in '55. So no b-52s available at Pt. Mugu in '53. The only large jet bomber then was the B-47, and by stretching it a bit, you could put the B-36 in there.

Ufology
To see how the AF puts out a report, google "The Shootdown of Trigger 4". Follow this model.

You can get it on kindle for $4, but you'll need a color kindle as it has colour maps.

For anyone not wanting to spend google time, here are three links, Amazon and two places to either read it on line or download it if you have the capabilities

http://www.amazon.com/Shootdown-Trigger-Report-Project-ebook/dp/B004R1Q3G8.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1454747/US-Air-Force-trigger4

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7214022...er-4-Report-of-the-Project-Trigger-Study-Team

PD
 
OK that's a fair comment ... but it doesn't mean there wasn't some in reserve for the aircraft to use, or that it didn't have a kerosene based fuel that also causes black smoke or that it wasn't an aircraft that had taken off eastward out of Point Mugu.

I believe that several have already reiterated the one shot injection, and the eastward takeoff concepts.



All turbine AKA jet airplanes use a kerosene based fuel, from Jet-A through the JP series 3, 4, 5, and up to JP-8. You can even pour straight kerosene through the engine, as it works fine. Normally an adjustment is necessary on the fuel control unit. Avgas can even be used in an emergency and probably mogas. If you are around an air base, it's interesting to see how the contaminated JP goes up when burned in the open. A lot of coal black smoke.

PD
 
You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the YB-49 was only one option to consider and that the B-52 or other large jet of the day in the proximity of an airstrip is completely normal.


So let's see where that WAG leads, shall we?...

The very first B-52 rolled off the line in 1952 in Seattle, the first three were used by Boeing as test beds. The USAF received the first one in '54 and it went operational in '55. So no b-52s available at Pt. Mugu in '53. The only large jet bomber then was the B-47, and by stretching it a bit, you could put the B-36 in there.


Oops. The process of "ufology" failed again. How was that you worded it yesterday morning?...

As if you bothered to do any "actual" work yourself to be able to make the above statement. I did. It's not even that hard to do. But instead you just sit there and flame the thread with your pointless remarks.


:p
 

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