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Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

As others have pointed out, from the researcher's point of view, the procedure must be more important (if not more so) than the actual conclusion, because the adherence to proper procedure is the most certain way to reach an accurate conclusion. The more the researcher allows his preferred conclusion to dictate his methodology, the more confirmation bias is introduced and the less accurate the conclusion is likely to be.


There's an ironic element to this exercise. It has been reasonably determined that the UFO of December 16, 1953, almost certainly was not a Northrop flying wing. It has been reasonably determined that a lenticular cloud is a highly plausible explanation that fits the description of the event as we know it.

So here's the irony: Contrary to one person's unqualified, unsupported conclusion that it was flying wing airplane, objective research and analysis shows us that it wasn't. But we haven't eliminated the possibility that it may have been an alien craft! :D
 
I will mention again that the flying wing description may well simply be a description of the shape of the object and not actually at attempt of identification.

I suggest that the guys were trying to fit it to known aircraft and since there were no details visible at all, they surmised that perhaps they were looking head-on at a flying wing type craft- in other words a featureless smooth blob. I don't think they were saying that the object was an actual flying wing.

Lance

Entirely reasonable and fits in with the sort of behaviour you expect from witnesses, they try to fit what they are seeing to something they are familiar with and given Kelly Johnson's background not surprising he tried to match what he was seeing to some sort of aircraft.
 
has anyone seen the latest news from Sweden about a possible UFO on the bottom of the baltic sea? I can't include links so you have to google it up, but it looks pretty fascinating
 
What you seem to not understand, ufology, is that the skeptics here don't really personally care whether the particular object in question was a cloud or an aircraft, apart from what the objective facts can tell us about what is most likely the truth of the matter.

Although some of us happen to be just as geeky as anyone about our enthusiasm for odd and experimental aircraft, we're not particularly interested in establishing that a YB-49 might have been serviceable and airborne over the Pacific Ocean in the evening of December 16, 1953. Though it would certainly be cool if there were lots of exotic Northrup YB-49 bombers buzzing around the skies in the mid-1950s, we set aside those emotions when it comes to doing research because we're not doing this for the purpose of bolstering our own fantasies; we're here to determine the objective facts.

To that end, it's all about the process by which we arrive at our conclusions. That process is everything when it comes to trying to determine the objective reality of a situation. That process means reserving our conclusion while conducting our investigation.

For example, refraining from presumptuously referring to the unidentified object as "the flying wing" or "a lenticular cloud" during our analysis, until we have reliably established that conclusion by means of the objective evidence. That's precisely why the acronym "UFO" was initially created by the USAF: specifically to reference objects seen in the sky which have not been positively identified.

Investigation follows a defined procedure:

  • Gathering evidence like eyewitness accounts, maps, verifiable facts, weather data, mathematics (in this case, geometry/trigonometry), relevant scientific knowledge (physics, meteorology), etc.
  • Dispassionately examining and weighing the evidence according to reliability and completeness. In terms of reliability, objective evidence like maps, verifiable facts, mathematics, the laws of physics, etc. will always take precedent over less reliable subjective claims such as eyewitness accounts, especially when multiple accounts are contradictory of one another.

    Of paramount importance is the realization that eyewitness accounts do not represent evidence for themselves, only evidence that somebody at some point claimed something. Thus, eyewitness accounts are only useful insofar as they might provide leads for further investigation.
  • Constructing a model based on the evidence that accounts for as much of the evidence as possible. In this case, the "model" was Stray Cat's maps with the sight-lines of the observers.
  • Proposing hypotheses that fit the evidence.
  • Testing those hypotheses against the model, and seeking out additional evidence if any unsupported assumptions have been made by any hypothesis.
  • Eliminating hypotheses that don't fit the model, that contradict the evidence, or that require assumptions unsubstantiated by evidence (a.k.a. "Occam's Razor").
  • Finally deciding on the most reasonable conclusion that fits as much of the evidence as possible, and eliminates or accounts for any contradictions in the evidence.

As others have pointed out, from the researcher's point of view, the procedure must be considered more important than the actual conclusion, because the adherence to proper procedure is the most certain way to reach an accurate conclusion. The more the researcher allows his preferred conclusion to influence his methodology, the more confirmation bias is introduced and the less accurate the conclusion is likely to be.

Thank you John Albert.

ufology, I suggest you read the above, print the relevant sections and put it on the wall above your work space.
 
Thank you for the information and clarificaton, tjw.

To add, the USAF Blue Book official investigation into the event concluded that a lenticular cloud was the most likely explanation. At the time, the crew of the WV-6 could have eliminated the possibility as they discussed it amongst themselves, based on their collective knowledge on how such clouds form. However, the later Blue Book investigators may have had a wider knowledge, knowing - as you do - that such a cloud could form over open ocean in the vicinity of the Channel Islands, those islands acting as the object necessary to cause the required upwind.

I've never to my knowledge seen a 'lennie' :) as we don't have much stable air here in the mid-latitudes. The cloud that Stray Cat saw a few weeks back was a rare occurence for England.



Sure ... it could have been be a cloud ... but the "wider knowledge" of bluebook doesn't really stand up against the expereince of the firsthand witnesses in the aircraft to quote:

====================

"I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away."

"I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to have accurate observations. Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained observer. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an illusion that I observed."

=================

Bluebook also came up with the "swamp gas" theory and was part of the military and therefore bound to keep secrets a secret. So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.
 
Bluebook also came up with the "swamp gas" theory and was part of the military and therefore bound to keep secrets a secret. So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.

If squadrons of UFOs ( witches ) were known to frequent the area, they would have been told to keep it secret because if UFOs ( witches ) aren't meant to exist anymore, the government would want to stop prosecuting them. Ah ha! When was the last time a UFO ( witch ) was prosecuted?

That is sufficient evidence that it was a squadron of UFOs ( witches ). Here is a picture of a squadron of UFOs ( witches ) from Google Images to prove my point:

 
Sure ... it could have been be a cloud ... but the "wider knowledge" of bluebook doesn't really stand up against the expereince of the firsthand witnesses in the aircraft to quote:

====================

"I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away."

"I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to have accurate observations. Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained observer. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an illusion that I observed."

=================

Bluebook also came up with the "swamp gas" theory and was part of the military and therefore bound to keep secrets a secret. So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.

You've not learned a thing have you ufology?
 
Bluebook also came up with the "swamp gas" theory and was part of the military and therefore bound to keep secrets a secret. So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.


If there is a secret that nobody knows, nobody knows it. And if everything you wish was true was true, it would be true. If. What a ridiculous argument.

It has been reasonably determined through the process of quantitative objective analysis, a process obviously foreign to "ufology", that it was almost certainly not a flying wing. If you have anything other than arguments consisting of unqualified opinion and unsupported assertion, now would be a good time to submit it. Otherwise the persistent bleating about a flying wing can be dismissed as noise.

And didn't you say you were going to do some math?

:dl:
 
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Sure ... it could have been be a cloud ... but the "wider knowledge" of bluebook doesn't really stand up against the expereince of the firsthand witnesses in the aircraft to quote:

====================

"I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away."

Are you sure you want to claim that Wimmer was an expert in estimating distances where there is little to judge?

Because if we're going to use him as the expert in distance and position, we're going to have to move the plane South about another 30 miles and move the position of the object just east of Santa Cruz.
That's going to put the plane 69 miles away from the object.
Then we only have 5 minutes of chasing the object, not ten.

You may want to reconsider.
And you may want to look on the previous page of this thread for what happened when I tested your theory against the map using real sums.

"I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to have accurate observations.
And yet, the three "trained to have accurate observation" people couldn't agree on the distances, their position, the position of the thing they were observing or how long they were observing it for.

If I told you I was an expert juggler with years of experience whilst standing there and dropping my juggling clubs every time I threw one, would my assertion be more convincing than the practical demonstration I was giving of my 'skillz'?

Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained observer. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an illusion that I observed."
But Kelley's test flight work is irrelevant, he wasn't flying, I'm sure he was a innovative aircraft designer, but he wasn't designing aircraft either (heck, he was probably a good horse rider too with him owning a ranch). But he was looking at something he didn't know what it was... how does one become an expert in looking at stuff you can't identify?

He wasn't a trained observer either. He was an engineer who'd been refused entry into the Air Training Corp because he failed the eyesight test and had take his pilot's licence privately.

=================

Bluebook also came up with the "swamp gas" theory and was part of the military and therefore bound to keep secrets a secret. So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.
Oh dear... :rolleyes:
 
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Sorry, I just had to add this as well.

Sure ... it could have been be a cloud ... but the "wider knowledge" of bluebook doesn't really stand up against the expereince of the firsthand witnesses in the aircraft to quote:

====================

"I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing
radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little
to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away."
And what could he be describing here?
Let's think. What would be "large" enough for him to see whilst it was "some distance away" (actually about 69 miles away if his considerable experience and observation skills are as good and accurate as claimed)?
 
"I might add that I have had considerable experience, while doing radar bombing on P2V’s, of estimating distance where there is very little to judge by and I am convinced this was a large object some distance away."

"I might mention that I have been very skeptical of flying saucer stories, and have never even imagined seeing an object in the sky that I was not able to identify. The three of us who watched it from the airplane are all pilots who have been flying for many years on experimental test work, and are trained to have accurate observations. Kelly also has had a lot of experience in flight test work and has been flying for many years and is also a very trained observer. The fact that what he saw and what we saw appears to be identical, and the the time and place identical, leads me to believe that it was not exactly an illusion that I observed."


Hubris, anyone?

Those quotes alone indicate nothing except that the people who said them believed they knew what they saw. There's no way for any of the quotes to prove that any of those guys' statements are in fact correct.

On the contrary, their stories are all contradictory of one another, therefore there's no way they can all be correct. Besides that, objective evidence and simple trig shows that there's no way the thing could have been an aircraft viewed as described by both parties.


So if it was a surviving flying wing being used for recon missions, or another aircraft on a secret mission they may not even have known about it, or if they did, would not have been able to disclose it.


The notion of it being a YB-49 "flying wing" on a secret mission makes no sense, because development of that aircraft was halted due to the fact that the design was too unstable and prone to stalling easily. Thus it was never commissioned for military service in the first place.
 
You've not learned a thing have you ufology?
Mr J Randall Murphy appears not to have read and applied John Albert's excellent post from yesterday, that's for sure. :(

As I said to you two days ago folo, it's all about the process. Process process process!!! :mad:

For the record, I don't give a monkeys whether it was a cloud or a sooper seekrit aeroplane, I'm only interested in where the - little evidence that we have - leads us.
 
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Here's a not so perfect rendering of what I was trying to get at ( Someone please copy it because I'm, not leaving it up for long. )


Mugu-01a.jpg


So the idea is that the mystery aircraft in the red path comes in and makes a slow pass over Mugu Point, and for drama's sake takes a bunch of spy pictures. Then to make it's getaway goes into a high power turn and acceleration spewing a big black temporary cloud that draws the attention of the Kelly near Agoura about 16 miles away ( yellow circle ). By the the time he gets his binoculars on it, the cloud is pretty much dissipated and he sees only the aircraft at 8 X magnification heading away. Meanwhile as the mystery aircraft is making it's getaway turn to the south, the observers in the WV-2 see an apparently stationary black object ( exhaust/aircraft combo ) which upon further study looks more like a large aircraft coming straight toward them ( which it would be for short time ). So they turn toward it to get a better look. Now both aircraft are closing the gap allowing the WV-2 crew to get a better look, and because the WV-2 is keeping the mystery aircraft dead ahead, it appears to not be moving relative to them until it starts to pull directly away almost due west at a much faster pace than the lumbering WV-2 that has now come in almost directly behind it but at some distance ... or they were all wrong about it and it really was just a cloud after all ... or swamp gas ... or a mass hallucination ... or a flock of witches ... or whatever makes you skeptics happy.
 
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