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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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christianahannah,

Bob Graham wrote, "Chris Mellas, Knox's step-father who is currently in Perugia, said yesterday: "Our lawyers asked for everything, every file and record relating to the forensic testing. We were given some of the stuff, like what was on Meredith's shoes or a juice glass but not the full reports on the knife used or the bra-clasp."

I corresponded with Dan Krane and Jason Gilder about the lack of file release. Both in the open letter of 19 November 2009 and in conversations with me, they were very clear that they asked for the electronic data files and did not get them. Separately in articles in 2010 that appeared in Irish publications, Greg Hampikian mentioned that he had a hard time getting the standard operating protocols.

When you write of electronic data files are you meaning e-grams and/or something more?

Wouldn't there have to be some sort of checklist/document submitted by the defense on what specifically they want or else how would the court know whether what was asked for was not complied with by the prosecution? Every file and record is vague and some records may not even be required by law (this I don't know to be fact - just throwing it out there).
 
I believe the police, operating on hunches that seem ridiculous to us, were sure of Lumumba's involvement before Amanda fingered him. I think the doubters out there have a problem comprehending how stupid the police can be. So far as I'm concerned, the possibilities are bottomless.
Count me as a doubter, and don't bet against me in this in the recanting-department either.

Usually my approach to things like this is: if it's a choice between wilfull evil and simple incompetence, incometene should win every time.

This is an exception. I do not think the police were stupid. I think Mignini engineered exactly what was engineered. I think he'll do jail time for it.

I shall not recant!
 
From Franks blog it seems that Giobbi is confirming that the interrogation was taped and that he testified that he and Mignini were in a room together watching it all. So, no middle of the night phone call getting a poor, sleepy mignini out of bed. He was there from beginning to end, orchestrating the whole thing.

"Between 36 Cops and Amanda, Hellmann and Zanetti Believed Amanda
As it was unavoidable, indeed, the leader’s project didn’t work. Two men of value have figured out everything, absolutely everything: the pair’s innocence and the leader’s project.
Between 10, 20, 50 cops and Amanda, Hellmann and Zanetti believed Amanda. They simply followed the law: is it not true what she said? Did she spontaneously accuse Patrick? Make us see the video of the interrogation! Make us hear the audio, at least. You can’t? Then you are lying and she’s telling the truth.
The interrogation of November 5 was indeed recorded, Giobbi said that. What a combination. Only the one who left right after that night of madness, the one who couldn’t talk again with Mignini and the other cops, doesn’t confirm them. And so accuses Mignini.Mignini Was There And The Interrogation Was Video Recorded“I gave the order, to bring them both in together” –Giobbi revealed at the trial.Amanda wasn’t to suspect that she was suspected, she had to think she was there by chance, just to accompany Raffaele. So that if she still had the text messages, Patrick-to-Amanda and back, she wouldn’t have deleted them.
She was expected, instead, very expected. She didn’t know, but the party was thrown for her. And for her cellphone. They had understood that Patrick was the killer and they were hoping to find proof of that in her cellphone.

That’s why they sent a cop to “chat” with her while she was waiting: to make sure she didn’t delete the text messages right before the interrogation.

So, as soon as the room was ready, with the camera set up and everything, she was called in. “Let’s go in there, because it’s warmer” they told her (ask her, she can talk now!).

“I was in a room together with the prosecutor Mignini”. –Giobbi adds– We were watching the interrogation, so to study her reactions”.
So, Giobbi reveals that Mignini was present! He is responsible, then, for everything that happened that night. “The room was faraway, but still I could hear her screams”. So, they could watch the interrogation from a room that was faraway. And that can only happen if the interrogation was broadcast to Mignini and Giobbi in their room, therefore it had to also have been videotaped.And she was screaming! Impressive. An officer is so used to abuses in police stations that he can admit in court without any problem that a witness, alone in the hands of many cops, overnight, is SCREAMING during an interrogation!

Indeed she was screaming, and we even know why.
 
So I now have no quarrel with Arturo de Felice, Perugia police chief, who said, "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles."

Of course she buckled - one more admission that there was nothing spontaneous about ANYTHING Knox said that night. When she finally got around to saying the right things about Lumumba, the fix was in.

Bill, not only don't I have a problem with the chief's statement I think it is the most important quote of the case.

The chief made it perfectly clear that BEFORE Amanda's interrogation and "accusation" statement, they "knew" that Patrick killed Meredith and that Amanda was there.

There is no other way to interpret his statement along with case closed. I doubt that within 3 days of the discovery that they were in a panic to solve the case nor do I believe that Mignini thought she was innocent but he was going to frame her. It seems clear that Mignini has always seen devils in the shadows and Amanda was one of them. He may have cleaned up the work of the 1:45 statement but I would imagine that isn't that unusual.

The biggest elephant in the callunnia room is the missing recording of PATRICK'S INTERROGATION as there is NO WAY he wasn't a SUSPECT. WHERE is the recording of his interrogation?
 
From Frank's latest post:



Wow, just wow. What happened to the tapes?

The quote from Giobbi pretty much says it all, which is why I'm so curious to see the rest of his testimony. Whatever happened to the project to have trial testimony transcribed? I'd be more than willing to donate to such a project. If there's one thing I can say for certain about this case, it's that the more we hear verbatim what people said on the stand the more myths get broken.

I think we all knew Mignini was present and the interrogation was recorded. I wonder how many other people testified confirming this (carabinieri). And I wonder if it's been destroyed, or if there is a copy floating around.
 
I posted this comparison of the 1.45 and 5.45 memorandums at IIP today:


OK, this is my second 'spontaneous statement' comparison, this time using komponisto's translations, and adopting the same format as yesterday, with my own (somewhat expanded) comments interspersed in red. Any quoted text is lifted directly from the translation; otherwise, it is my paraphrase and all emphasis is mine. As I said yesterday, the two statements are glaringly different and, I think, tell quite a story:

Fascinating - this isn't a point I've seen in any of the comment on the case from the beginning. The 5:45 statement as a second attempt at a forced confession under Mignini's guidance is really one that makes sense of the whole sequence of events.

What is frustrating is the way the guilter side lapped up the Nov 5th statements and the prosecution spin on them entirely at face value; you really have to ask yourself what would motivate people to swallow the Mignini porridge. They even claimed that Mignini got out of bed in the middle of the night because Amanda insisted on speaking to him!
 
To me, it is a clear as day that Lumumba was in their sights no later than the time they had joined not less than two of these three dots:
1 a black man was involved (why the cops seemed to have this idea I have no idea but I keep reading everywhere that they did - but as Frank asks, if they found a hair, where is it?)

Maybe the car park video of a black man had something to do with it. ;)

2 Lumumba met Amanda on the morning of 05/11/2007 and was presumably seen by the cops doing so

Another reason we can assume they were both SUSPECTS.

3 Lumumba received the 'see you later' text.

I think they first saw this the night of the 5th and it sealed the deal. That's how they knew what was correct. I doubt they had the cell phone records for all calls in the area or they would have brought Kokomani in.

As all the cops needed to arrest the poor sap was:

4 Amanda placing him at the scene in her 'confessions' of 06/11/2007

to consider their case cast iron.

The weird thing is they could have brought him legitimately as a non suspect before she ratted him out but after they had to consider him a suspect.
 
From Franks blog it seems that Giobbi is confirming that the interrogation was taped and that he testified that he and Mignini were in a room together watching it all. So, no middle of the night phone call getting a poor, sleepy mignini out of bed. He was there from beginning to end, orchestrating the whole thing.

"Between 36 Cops and Amanda, Hellmann and Zanetti Believed Amanda
As it was unavoidable, indeed, the leader’s project didn’t work. Two men of value have figured out everything, absolutely everything: the pair’s innocence and the leader’s project.
Between 10, 20, 50 cops and Amanda, Hellmann and Zanetti believed Amanda. They simply followed the law: is it not true what she said? Did she spontaneously accuse Patrick? Make us see the video of the interrogation! Make us hear the audio, at least. You can’t? Then you are lying and she’s telling the truth.
The interrogation of November 5 was indeed recorded, Giobbi said that. What a combination. Only the one who left right after that night of madness, the one who couldn’t talk again with Mignini and the other cops, doesn’t confirm them. And so accuses Mignini.Mignini Was There And The Interrogation Was Video Recorded“I gave the order, to bring them both in together” –Giobbi revealed at the trial.Amanda wasn’t to suspect that she was suspected, she had to think she was there by chance, just to accompany Raffaele. So that if she still had the text messages, Patrick-to-Amanda and back, she wouldn’t have deleted them.
She was expected, instead, very expected. She didn’t know, but the party was thrown for her. And for her cellphone. They had understood that Patrick was the killer and they were hoping to find proof of that in her cellphone.

That’s why they sent a cop to “chat” with her while she was waiting: to make sure she didn’t delete the text messages right before the interrogation.

So, as soon as the room was ready, with the camera set up and everything, she was called in. “Let’s go in there, because it’s warmer” they told her (ask her, she can talk now!).

“I was in a room together with the prosecutor Mignini”. –Giobbi adds– We were watching the interrogation, so to study her reactions”.
So, Giobbi reveals that Mignini was present! He is responsible, then, for everything that happened that night. “The room was faraway, but still I could hear her screams”. So, they could watch the interrogation from a room that was faraway. And that can only happen if the interrogation was broadcast to Mignini and Giobbi in their room, therefore it had to also have been videotaped.And she was screaming! Impressive. An officer is so used to abuses in police stations that he can admit in court without any problem that a witness, alone in the hands of many cops, overnight, is SCREAMING during an interrogation!

Indeed she was screaming, and we even know why.

Something making me second-guess that this had to have been videotaped is that both Nina Burleigh and TJMK state that Giobbi watched the interrogations from the other side of double-paned glass. This would negate the need for video-taping (though not rule it out). TJMK states he was in a room between Amanda and Raf's interrogation rooms, being able to watch both at the same time. However, I realize that Giobbi stating the room was far away is at odds with this. Not sure what exactly to make of all this.
 
Bill, not only don't I have a problem with the chief's statement I think it is the most important quote of the case.

The chief made it perfectly clear that BEFORE Amanda's interrogation and "accusation" statement, they "knew" that Patrick killed Meredith and that Amanda was there.

There is no other way to interpret his statement along with case closed. I doubt that within 3 days of the discovery that they were in a panic to solve the case nor do I believe that Mignini thought she was innocent but he was going to frame her. It seems clear that Mignini has always seen devils in the shadows and Amanda was one of them. He may have cleaned up the work of the 1:45 statement but I would imagine that isn't that unusual.

The biggest elephant in the callunnia room is the missing recording of PATRICK'S INTERROGATION as there is NO WAY he wasn't a SUSPECT. WHERE is the recording of his interrogation?
The missing Lumumba tapes I'll give you - how any of the PGP can assimilate these facts, and still maintain a guilte position for Knox and Sollecito remains one of the only remaining mysteries.

As for the police prior knowledge of Lumumba - I still think you're wrong. The chief's remark is 20-20-hindsight bragging, that's how I view it. Like my other post - I say, "I'm going to roll 11's with a pair of dice", I roll 11's and I say, "I told you I was going to roll 11's!"

All you need do is point out to me that there's a 1/18 chance of me being right. In fact, if you have 1800 people making the same boast, 100 people are going to look like geniuses.

I have yet to hear anything that suggests anything other than that Amanda's imaginings caught them completely off guard.

Don Liddle was called in relief for the New York Giants baseball team in Game 1 of the 1954 World Series. He threw all of four pitches to Vic Wertz, who crushed the fourth pitch to deep-centre field. Willie Mays outran the ball in what has been called since, "The Catch", saving the game for the Giants.

The comparison here is that Liddle was immediately replaced on the mound by Marv Grissom, to whom Liddled quipped, "Well, I got my man."

I think Liddle is a bit like the first interrogators.... they couldn't believe where they got to.... and Mignini knew there were "spontanaety" issues to sort out, given that there had been nothing spontaneous about the first interrogation.
 
The missing Lumumba tapes I'll give you - how any of the PGP can assimilate these facts, and still maintain a guilte position for Knox and Sollecito remains one of the only remaining mysteries.

As for the police prior knowledge of Lumumba - I still think you're wrong. The chief's remark is 20-20-hindsight bragging, that's how I view it. Like my other post - I say, "I'm going to roll 11's with a pair of dice", I roll 11's and I say, "I told you I was going to roll 11's!"

All you need do is point out to me that there's a 1/18 chance of me being right. In fact, if you have 1800 people making the same boast, 100 people are going to look like geniuses.

I have yet to hear anything that suggests anything other than that Amanda's imaginings caught them completely off guard.

Don Liddle was called in relief for the New York Giants baseball team in Game 1 of the 1954 World Series. He threw all of four pitches to Vic Wertz, who crushed the fourth pitch to deep-centre field. Willie Mays outran the ball in what has been called since, "The Catch", saving the game for the Giants.

The comparison here is that Liddle was immediately replaced on the mound by Marv Grissom, to whom Liddled quipped, "Well, I got my man."

I think Liddle is a bit like the first interrogators.... they couldn't believe where they got to.... and Mignini knew there were "spontanaety" issues to sort out, given that there had been nothing spontaneous about the first interrogation.

According to Amanda's testimony in the first trial, the cops led her to her "imaginings". For example, she says she didn't say she was in the kitchen covering her ears, not straight out.

From PMF transcript of Amanda's testimony:

CP: Signorina Amanda, listen. On the evening of November 1, 2007, did you
hear Meredith, poor Meredith, scream?

AK: No.

CP: In the interrogation of November 6, 2007, at 5:45, you declared that before she died, you heard Meredith scream. How could you know that Meredith screamed before she was killed? Who told you?

AK: So when I was with the police, they asked if I heard Meredith's scream.
I said no. They said "But if you were there, how could you not hear her
scream? If you were there?" I said "Look, I don't know, maybe I had my ears
covered." So they said "Fine, we'll write that down. Fine."

CP: [louder] But I can tell you that on November 6, the police did not know
that Meredith screamed before she died, so why would they suggest it to you?

AK: I imagine that maybe they were imagining how it might have been.

To me, based on the information we have, it is fairly obvious that the police had already decided what they thought happened that night, before they called Raffaele in for questioning (and they were 99% sure Amanda would come with him).

1) They suspected Amanda from day 1
2) They had the CCTV footage of a young woman approaching the cottage, then a black man approaching soon after
3) They knew that Amanda worked for Lumumba
4) Any competent police force would be tailing the leading suspects in such a case, and we know they were recording Amanda and Raff's calls (per Burleigh)
5) They must have seen Patrick approach Amanda outside the school earlier that day
6) The police suspected multiple killers from day 1, or at least a strong male killer, who must have had assistance to gain entry from another person or persons

All of the above is logical, to me, at the time. I would have been checking out Amanda, Raffaele, and Lumumba as well. I think that most of the time, crime investigation works this way:

* Survey the people close to the victim and or area
* Question them, and see who's story seems odd or doesn't quite add up
* Put together a theory
* Call in whoever looks like the weakest link, and hit them with a "hard" interrogation and/or offer them a deal to get them to spill the beans

This probably works, at least a good portion of the time. The problem is when they get the scenario completely wrong, like in this case.

I can understand the story they were putting together, up until they interrogated Amanda on the 5th and 6th. So they put the screws to her, but something strange happened. She denied everything (not strange), then she told a story that didn't make much sense, and said she was confused and didn't know what happened. Instead of thinking that this was an odd development, and investigating further/analyzing the forensics, they assumed Amanda's story was a lie, or actually a partial truth -- they cherry picked the parts they liked. It has never made sense to me that Mignini and guilters want to take Amanda's statement, and split out the parts as true and false so they fit perfectly their need to vilify her. By that I mean: The part about her being at the cottage is true, but the part about Patrick being there is a lie. A lie that wouldn't even help her, since she is admitting to being there herself!

But getting back to the main point, I think it is clear that the police had already decided they suspected both Amanda and Lumumba, before the interrogation started on the evening of the 5th. They may not have been sure what story she would tell, but they were convinced she was at the center of it, and they could get her to implicate Lumumba, Raffaele, or both. They had no clue that Rudy was involved at that time, and they should have.
 
For Charlie:

As far as Stefanoni I would have to compare her testimony given in 2011 with her testimony given in 2009 to see if there are major discrepancies. Added to this is the last sentence above I have posted to halides1. Your meeting with Dalla Vedova seems to imply the defense wasn't sure what to ask for in 2009.

This is what I mean by grasping at straws.

At that time, Hampikian had just been asked to take a fresh look at the DNA evidence. He was explaining to dalla Vedova what he needed to do a complete evaluation. Gino had requested the same information earlier.

The experts in this case knew what they needed, and they all asked for the same thing. But Stefanoni stonewalled these requests, because, when she finally handed the information to C&V, it showed that her work was sloppy, inconsistent, and generally guided by a desire to generate a result useful to her employers rather than impartial science.

This has been a persistent problem with forensic DNA in recent years. It's not a mere technicality. It can and does lead to DNA test results that incriminate innocent people, and this is a textbook example.
 
Are you accusing them of being incompetent? I am not.

Sure they had suspicions about everyone one-degree-of-separation from Amanda's front door key. That would include Lumumba.

The point is - where did Lumumba rank in that suspicion as of 10 am, Nov 5th? My feeling is very low, and I still have not seen actual evidence to suggest otherwise.

Bill how could anybody provide you with evidence? If you would read the coverage from day one and put that into your assessments I think you will come to the conclusion that the police were in fact incompetent.

As the case was unfolding, I was of the mind that the police and Mignini et al. were fabricating evidence and trying to make the case against the kids. As more time went by I became more and more sure that the vast majority of the poor police work came from incompetence. I'm sure in time you will see it that way as well.

They probably thought Romanelli was withholding a lot of stuff, too. First on that list was, "Why'd you trespass into a crime scene to steal your own computer? Are you not a lawyer?" I bet she clammed up about that one on lawyer's advice.

I think it can be stated this way - police suspected that EITHER Romanelli OR Knox were withholding something, because that was the investigative line (then) that seemed to be going somewhere. If they could only find out "what", maybe a slap on the back of the head would help. They certainly would not have slapped Romanelli with her lawyer there.

The other investigative line (Meredith met someone the night before who she'd asked back on the 1st) was going nowhere. At least nowhere until Guede entered the picture.

Once again, go read the stories I linked to earlier. I firmly believe that the police and the press changed the date story under pressure because no one wanted to besmirch Meredith's memory. Had they stuck with it perhaps Rudy would have been zeroed in on earlier.
 
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When you write of electronic data files are you meaning e-grams and/or something more?

Wouldn't there have to be some sort of checklist/document submitted by the defense on what specifically they want or else how would the court know whether what was asked for was not complied with by the prosecution? Every file and record is vague and some records may not even be required by law (this I don't know to be fact - just throwing it out there).

The electronic data files are the raw numbers generated by the sequencer, which a computer then uses to create an electropherogram, i.e., the line graph with visible peaks.

Other important information:

Quantification data - test results showing how much DNA was in a given sample before it was prepared for the sequencer.

Control results - i.e., for blank samples run through the sequencer to make sure there are no DNA contaminants in the system. Faking controls is the most common fraudulent practice in forensic DNA labs, because contamination is a frequent problem. If it is detected in a control sample, everything has to be done over again. Stefanoni seems to have avoided this pitfall by simply not performing control tests.

Defense consultants requested this information, and more, in written documentation submitted to the court. Stefanoni responded by providing a disorganized mess of extraneous material that omitted exactly what was needed to evaluate the most significant test results. Finally, Hellmann demanded that she give C&V what they wanted. When she did, some key information, such as control data, was missing completely, but what she did hand over was enough to establish that her results were unreliable, especially with regard to Sample 36B, the knife blade.
 
Bill,

You are entitled to your opinion. I think that the police had Lumumba in their sites before the night of the 5th. I think they were looking for a black man and Lumumba was clearly the most connected to Amanda. I think that the chief made it clear how they were thinking and they stopped when she fingered Patrick.

I don't think the "11" example makes sense nor does "the catch" anecdote. They had their theory, I guess that's the "11", and it came to fruition but the analogy is that the dice were loaded. The police predicted Patrick and then forced Amanda (the dice) to come up with Patrick (the "11").

Why would the police stop with Amanda if they didn't have Patrick in mind? The wording by the chief is significant and isn't hindsight - why wouldn't he just have said we solved the case?
 
I have yet to hear anything that suggests anything other than that Amanda's imaginings caught them completely off guard.

I think you're probably mistaken about this, but the proof either way may never come to light at this point.

I don't think they'd have rushed out to arrest Lumumba if Amanda's statements hadn't supported what they already believed was the case.

I suspect they never thought, early on, that Amanda killed Meredith. They thought she knew who did, and that she was covering for that person. But then, when Lumumba had a perfect alibi, and the forensics led to someone who was peripheral to both Amanda and Meredith, they needed someone to blame for the false accusation. Thus, in the official theory, Amanda morphed from a passive accessory into a conspirator who participated actively in the murder and sought to cover it up by misleading the police.
 
From reading the legal code (and confusing it is entirely) I don't know that the tapes (if they exist) could be shown by either side during the main trial because of the status conveyed upon Amanda during and after her questioning. Along the same line as the 1:45 and 5:45 statements (though one or both of the statements was able to be used in Patrick's civil suit).

I think your missing the main point. The point is Mignini is a lying liar and the cops are also lying liars. This little system of justice in Perugia is rotten to the core. My question is, does this information change your opinion on the case?
 
I have yet to hear anything that suggests anything other than that Amanda's imaginings caught them completely off guard.
Yes, I think it's very difficult to tell at this stage whether the police had zeroed in on Amanda early on, or whether they were already convinced she was involved. I agree that there's no really convincing evidence she wasn't just one of several leads they were following up at the same time, and in her case they were probably more interested in the names of men she and Meredith knew who might have done it, rather than suspecting her of direct involvement. As you say, Giobbi's words afterwards could just be bragging. I don't think they can possibly have known beforehand what Amanda wrote in her text message to Patrick, and that seems to have triggered the whole thing.

Something that struck me from Hicham Khiri's testimony, translated by thoughtful some time back, is that the police seemed quite suspicious of his involvement on the 3rd/4th, so much so they came to his house at 2 a.m. to take him to the police station:

Q: Do you remember, on the 3rd, at what time you were heard?

A: Yes, on that day I stopped working at midnight and towards 12:30 I was at my house, and at the moment where I was just going to sleep, towards about 2 a.m., they knocked at my house. It was the police, they said: “Are you Hicham Khiri” – I said - “Yes” – “You have to come with us”, and I went with them.

Q: So you, that night at 2 a.m.…

A: Two at night, or a quarter after…

Q: And until what time were you there?

A: Until about four, I believe…at least two hours, at least two hours of questioning, two hours, two and a half, it’s not like I remember exactly.

In his case it seems to have been the fact he was in the area of the cottage that night, as well as him having met both Meredith and Amanda, that made made the police suspect him. So at least up to the night of 3/4 November they weren't focused exclusively on Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick.
 
Pascali in 2008

When you write of electronic data files are you meaning e-grams and/or something more?

Wouldn't there have to be some sort of checklist/document submitted by the defense on what specifically they want or else how would the court know whether what was asked for was not complied with by the prosecution? Every file and record is vague and some records may not even be required by law (this I don't know to be fact - just throwing it out there).
christianahannah,

The electronic data files are needed to create the electropherograms. Having them gives one the opportunity to zoom in on small peaks, for example. I spoke with an Italian legal expert who says that they have complete discovery. This suggests that the present case was an aberration. It is interesting that Raffaele's appeal indicated that Pascali was turned down when he asked for certain information in 2008.
 
Yes, I think it's very difficult to tell at this stage whether the police had zeroed in on Amanda early on, or whether they were already convinced she was involved. I agree that there's no really convincing evidence she wasn't just one of several leads they were following up at the same time, and in her case they were probably more interested in the names of men she and Meredith knew who might have done it, rather than suspecting her of direct involvement. As you say, Giobbi's words afterwards could just be bragging. I don't think they can possibly have known beforehand what Amanda wrote in her text message to Patrick, and that seems to have triggered the whole thing.

Something that struck me from Hicham Khiri's testimony, translated by thoughtful some time back, is that the police seemed quite suspicious of his involvement on the 3rd/4th, so much so they came to his house at 2 a.m. to take him to the police station:



In his case it seems to have been the fact he was in the area of the cottage that night, as well as him having met both Meredith and Amanda, that made made the police suspect him. So at least up to the night of 3/4 November they weren't focused exclusively on Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick.

They seem to like interrogating at a time when the "suspects" (legally or not) would normally be sleeping. I guess they prefer creating the probability of having one's guard down to clarity of thought.
 
I think your missing the main point. The point is Mignini is a lying liar and the cops are also lying liars. This little system of justice in Perugia is rotten to the core. My question is, does this information change your opinion on the case?

I guess I did miss the main point, however, I'll keep trying until I get it right.

I was responding to your question of what happened to the missing tapes (if there were tapes). I don't know any more than you so I was speculating.

I am not sure what information you are speaking of. The information about Giobbi and Mignini? Or more?

Since you appear to know my opinion on the case you probably also know I like official documents to reinforce whatever is written by media and that it helps me with my opinion to compare the two - media against official documents.
 
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