Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

GeeMack,

You never fail to misrepresent my position, leave out important details, and add your own bias. But lately your flavor is a off ... it's missing a certain flair ... I just can't quite put my finger on it.

You can't quite put your finger on it because what he is saying is the truth. Maybe you should slow down and really read what is being said then let it sink in before flapping your lip and have nothing but nonsense come out.



I Am He
 
In addition to my previous post. I've now worked out a scenario where it's possible for the object to move away from both the Johnson Ranch and the plane at an angle that may make it hard to discern any movement (in other words so that both observing groups would only have the impression of the object simply getting smaller and disappearing).

To do this, I've assumed that Johnson was approximately correct in that the object was in a line of sight in the direction of Point Mugu and that the single flight crew member who reported the object's position over Santa Barbra was also accurate in his observation.

So it is possible taking those two bits of information as accurate to have a position for the object that would put it at an adequate angle for it to be able to move away from both parties and possibly look like it was simply getting smaller.

By extending the line of sight from the Johnson Ranch over Point Mugu and out into the Pacific Ocean and taking the approximate position of the plane off the coast at Long Beach in the Catalina Channel and extending a line of sight directly over Santa Barbra Island. The two lines of sight converge at a point 256 miles away from the plane's position and 235 miles from the Johnson Ranch.

I wonder how much of an object 175' wide could be seen from a distance of over 200 miles?


Stray,

The aircraft I see here are just specks at 40Km unless they have their approach lights on. But you can see them distinctly as aircraft through 10X binoculars, so I'm thinking the range was more like around 35-40Km, and if you measure from Agoura where the ground observers were out over the water in the vicinity of Point Mugu where the airborne observers say the flying wing was, according to Google Earth measurements, that fits about right. So your 256 mile estimate is way off.

Then if the wing departed due west as reported, over the course of 90 seconds, also as reported, it would move off and appear to get smaller until it was gone at arange of about 50 Km. The YB-49 was produced by Northrop at Hawthorne California, not far away from the sighting and also flown out of Edwards AFB, also not also not far ( just over the mountain range about 100 Km NE ). So again, this all adds up to just what they say they saw ... a flying wing.
 
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You can't quite put your finger on it because what he is saying is the truth. Maybe you should slow down and really read what is being said then let it sink in before flapping your lip and have nothing but nonsense come out.
I Am He


So what are you now ... GeeMack's sidekick? Love the avatar.
 
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I would suggest that the reasonable course of action would be for the person who has an interest in the origin of the metal to be the one who investigates the origin of the metal, while those who are satisfied that there's no reason to do so don't.


The people who have an interest in the origin of the metal can do whatever they like on their own free time.

But it's unreasonable of the people who have an interest in the origin of the metal (ie. Mr. J. Randall Murphy, a.k.a. the poster known as "ufology") to expect those who are satisfied that there's no reason to investigate the origin of the metal (ie. the skeptics of the JREF Forum) to waste their time investigating the origin of the metal at his request, just to provide him with some free content for his own alien believer pseudoscience bookstore website.

Apparently, you haven't been around over the past few months to witness J. Randall Murphy's (ufology's) prior attempts to enlist the JREF Forum members to provide him with such free content, like debunking the Raelian Movement (which he appears to have some personal beef with). He first started making those requests after spending several weeks lecturing us about "critical thinking" and how stories ought to be accepted as evidence for things which have never been proven to exist. After we disagreed and tried to convince him that what he was advocating was not critical thinking, he accused us of rejecting his appeals to cooperate. Nevertheless, he's made several pleas since then to try and get us to do his job for him, despite the fact that none of us self-identify as UFOlogists. So before you start judging our reaction as overly harsh, realize that it's not the first time this has come up, and J. Randall Murphy (the poster known as "ufology") has a history of this kind of thing.
 
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Misrepresentation above. I used a direct cut and pasted quote of his question and responded to it accordingly. Maybe go back and start over.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7973081&postcount=41


Maybe it would be even more betterer if you were to cut out the idiosyncratic Q & A style responses and answered other posters in the same way as everyone else.

It's almost as if you're trying to confuse the issues.

No, wait . . .

It's exactly like that.
 
The people who have an interest in the origin of the metal can do whatever they like on their own free time. But it's unreasonable of the people who have an interest in the origin of the metal (ie. Mr. J. Randall Murphy, a.k.a. the poster known as "ufology") to expect those who are satisfied that there's no reason to investigate the origin of the metal (ie. the skeptics of the JREF Forum) to waste their time investigating the origin of the metal at his request, just to provide him with some free content for his own alien ... blah blah blah ...


Ya that's right Johnny ... get on it eh ... and quit making excuses.
 
The aircraft I see here are just specks at 40Km unless they have their approach lights on. But you can see them distinctly as aircraft through 10X binoculars, so I'm thinking the range was more like around 35-40Km, [...]


Again I'll remind you that your observation skills and memory have been demonstrated beyond any doubt to be wholly unreliable. Consequently any guesstimate you might offer may be discarded as useless nonsense.

[...] and if you measure from Agoura where the ground observers were out over the water in the vicinity of Point Mugu where the airborne observers say the flying wing was, according to Google Earth measurements, that fits about right. So your 256 mile estimate is way off.


It was a calculation based on an objective assessment of the reports. But since objectivity and math are foreign concepts to the pseudoscience of "ufology", your missing his point would be understandable.

And again how was it you determined it wasn't an alien craft? An alien craft might have flight characteristics exactly like a dissipating lenticular cloud.
 
But as mentioned, there was reasonable reason why: the claim just does not have enough merit as it is to bother with more investigation.


Exactly. Although you'll probably reject my suggestion that Folo knew that before he posted his pretend request for skeptical assistance.


There's nothing at all that suggests the object is something extraordinary, and a very plausible ordinary source is known.


Extraordinary, no, but what about sufficient?


So why bother with more investigation?


In order to create a veneer of genuine willingness to undertake objective investigations and hopefully begin an attempt in this new thread to crawl out of the Crater of Credulity™ that he fell into in Part 1.

Which is exactly why that toxic element amazingly perceptive person who first responded to his query decided that a simple "No" was a sufficient (and pragmatic) response.
 
Stray,

The aircraft I see here are just specks at 40Km unless they have their approach lights on. But you can see them distinctly as aircraft through 10X binoculars, so I'm thinking the range was more like around 35-40Km, and if you measure from Agoura where the ground observers were out over the water in the vicinity of Point Mugu where the airborne observers say the flying wing was, according to Google Earth measurements, that fits about right. So your 256 mile estimate is way off.

Then if the wing departed due west as reported, over the course of 90 seconds, also as reported, it would move off and appear to get smaller until it was gone at arange of about 50 Km. The YB-49 was produced by Northrop at Hawthorne California, not far away from the sighting and also flown out of Edwards AFB, also not also not far ( just over the mountain range about 100 Km NE ). So again, this all adds up to just what they say they saw ... a flying wing.


Those embiggened bits all have something in common, folo. Can you guess what it is?





That's right!!!

You made all them up.
 
Those embiggened bits all have something in common, folo. Can you guess what it is? That's right!!! You made all them up.


There's something else wrong too ... but don't try guessing because it would be about as pointless as your gormless comment ... although I'll give you some extra points for using the word "embiggened" ... although "largified" or "voluminated" would have also been equally deserving.
 
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Possibly, but I just concentrated on the most obvious bits.

And since we're in agreement that they're wrong I don't see much point in pursuing it further.


You mean you actually had a point to begin with? I thought you were just looking for an excuse to play with the font sizes. You know you can change the color too right?
 
You mean you actually had a point to begin with? I thought you were just looking for an excuse to play with the font sizes. You know you can change the color too right?


I know how to do lots of thigs.

Like this, for instance.


If I were going to start posting multiple case studies it would be on my own website and I'd link from here to them. And if you really knew what you were talking about with respect to how the USI site works, you wouldn't have made the comments you did. But I suppose such comments are to be expected from someone who hasn't actually done the work and finds satisfaction in minimizing other people's efforts.


One 'case study' that appears on your website is that of your own UFO sighting ( campfire story ) but it seems incomplete as there's no explanation of how you were able to eliminate witches as the subject of the sighting.

When do you anticipate having the time to correct this oversight?


You seem to have some time on your hands right now, so how about addressing the abovementioned oversight?
 
I couldn't agree more, and since the skeptics take particular joy in debunking these claims it seemed logical that maybe one of them here either already knew of some further information or might be interested in exposing an actual hoax rather than simply sitting back and making excuses as to why they don't need to bother. But with the exceptions of skeptics like Astro and Lance, such is typical here.

You're the person who thought it warranted investigation, nobody else. See above re burden of proof.
 
The people who have an interest in the origin of the metal can do whatever they like on their own free time.

But it's unreasonable of the people who have an interest in the origin of the metal (ie. Mr. J. Randall Murphy, a.k.a. the poster known as "ufology") to expect those who are satisfied that there's no reason to investigate the origin of the metal (ie. the skeptics of the JREF Forum) to waste their time investigating the origin of the metal at his request, just to provide him with some free content for his own alien believer pseudoscience bookstore website.

Apparently, you haven't been around over the past few months to witness J. Randall Murphy's (ufology's) prior attempts to enlist the JREF Forum members to provide him with such free content, like debunking the Raelian Movement (which he appears to have some personal beef with). He first started making those requests after spending several weeks lecturing us about "critical thinking" and how stories ought to be accepted as evidence for things which have never been proven to exist. After we disagreed and tried to convince him that what he was advocating was not critical thinking, he accused us of rejecting his appeals to cooperate. Nevertheless, he's made several pleas since then to try and get us to do his job for him, despite the fact that none of us self-identify as UFOlogists. So before you start judging our reaction as overly harsh, realize that it's not the first time this has come up, and J. Randall Murphy (the poster known as "ufology") has a history of this kind of thing.

I think you've grasped completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to my post.
 
We can also consider the contextual historicity of the testimony. Clarence L. Johnson says he believes in “flying saucers”. He believes he has previously seen “flying saucers”. He describes the “flying saucer” he witnessed as a black elliptical form. The concept of “flying saucers” goes back to a much earlier report of pilot reporting unidentified objects that resembled tossed saucers skipping over water. As a child, I skipped small flat stones over creeks—never saucers, but I get the picture. I would have called them “skipping stones” rather than “flying saucers”. And they were almost certainly actually a flock of birds.

But the media had a field day over the “flying saucers” story. People ate it up. For some reason artists put one saucer on top of another to create the alien space ship. So the popular culture science fiction version of an alien aircraft was basically a dark ellipse form. Keep in mind, this idea of an alien aircraft being based on a report if something that very much likely was not an alien aircraft and even required a great deal of artistic license to morph into the Hollywood dark steel gray ellipse alien aircraft. Yet, of all the possible forms an actual alien aircraft could take, the one Johnson reported seeing happened to fit exactly with our essentially made-up Hollywood version.

And some of the testimony doesn’t make sense.

I wondered why this one object was so dark, considering that the sun was behind it.
An object lighted from behind looks dark…because the light only hits the back. Even small uneducated children can figure this out. I don’t understand why he would even wonder about this.

As he watches it, wondering what it may be, totally unsure of what he is seeing, wanting to getting a closer look, asking his wife to get his binoculars, in order to figure out what he is actually seeing, which he doesn’t know, he concludes:

which by now I had recognized as a so-called saucer.
Oh. So after seeing some vague dark shape in the sky against the sun and not knowing what it is and asking for binoculars, he had already recognized it as and alien flying saucer spaceship. Which he then…couldn’t see clearly because of the “haze”.

It was “black and distinct” but he “could make out no detail”. But he could clearly tell “its speed was very high” due to the “fore-shortening of its major axis”. Yet “the object…appeared to be very large but, not knowing its distance from me, I could not estimate its dimensions.” Of course those dimensions would very much dictate the speed based on the change in the major axis, so he really had no idea of the speed either, even though he claims he did. But he goes on to estimate the position of the object…somehow. He had no idea of the size, position, speed, or exact shape of the object he witnessed.

What he saw could have been a cloud, or a distant plane, or a close plane, or some kid’s Batman kite that got caught in the wind.

The details of the testimony are either contradictory or unsupported, and have evidence of bias toward attempting to support “flying saucers”. As such, we have here evidence amounting to nothing more than someone claiming to have seem something that could be anything from a cloud to a plane to a kite. And apparently biased evidence at that.
 

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