Drug War Policy for Democrats

[Mudcat]

There are dry towns like Ocean City NJ. But this just means it can't be sold in the town. But people are still allowed to purchase it elsewhere and bring it into town to consume at their homes. It isn't "banned" like cannabis. If you can name a place where it is banned completely please do. But exceptions to the rule miss the point about danger and drugs.

I don't disagree with you, FYI. Nor can I think of anywhere where alcohol is illegal. And I don't know exactly just why the purchase of it is illegal, when people can just get it elsewhere (kind of the same the thing with Georgia's anti- fireworks law, when people can just go to Alabama to purchase them legally and transport them across state lines), but I'm willing to bet you that it has nothing to do with the negative aspects of alcohol.

 

[Democracy Simulator]

But it ignores the context of risk/benefit.

Ha! You have ignored the context of risk/benefit when it comes to drugs. You are quite happy to consider the benefits of risky activities that you like, but unwilling to acknowledge the benefits of risky activities that you don't like. That is just the type of special pleading that is often used to justify fascism.

The idea that taking drugs has no benefits is ludicrous and is presumably formed from many years of listening to government propaganda. Is it not curious that every day billions of people imbibe caffeine, alcohol, marijuana, chew cocoa leaves, eat psychedlics, smoke opium, take ecstasy etc. and these behaviours, according to you, have no benefit whatsoever? Yet, you don't like some of these drugs and want to stop people taking them, not because of any coherent set of reasons based on evidence and powerful ethical argument, but rather because you believe that people who take some of these substances (but not others presumably in your arbitrary system) are 'weak'. That is well on the road to fascism or totalitarianism.

And no, prohibiting substances that cause brain damage isn't the essence of fascism.

Yes, it is. You do not wish to prohibit boxing, which causes brain damage, you do not wish to prohibit other forms of self-harm like over-eating, or masochism. Yet, for some reason, those people who take drugs must have responsibility over their own bodies taken away from them, because you view them as 'weak'. I'll tell what is weak and that is fascism, because fascism is based on irrational fear and hatred and the destructive wish to control minorities that one does not like.

 

[Mudcat]

The idea that taking drugs has no benefits is ludicrous and is presumably formed from many years of listening to government propaganda.

If there are any benefits to taking pot (or any other drugs) than what are they?

Is it not curious that every day billions of people imbibe caffeine, alcohol, marijuana, chew cocoa leaves, eat psychedlics, smoke opium, take ecstasy etc. and these behaviours, according to you, have no benefit whatever.

I don't use tabacco products, drink alcohol or use most of the items on that list and I try to limit my consumption of caffeine, precisely because the negative aspects outweigh the positive.

I am not unhappy about their absence from my life, but see no reason to exclude it from being used by the more weak-willed.

You do not wish to prohibit boxing, which causes brain damage.

Boxing doesn't cause brain damage, getting hit in the head does.

 

[Dessi]

If there are any benefits to taking pot (or any other drugs) than what are they?

Medicinal benefits of cannabis are well documented.

For recreational users, benefits are a goofy, fun, good time with friends, movies, and food. Same reason that people go to bars, ride bumper cars, and such. Socializing and recreation fun are enjoyable in their own right.

I use cannabis while meditating as well. The right music can be incredibly relaxing, allowing my mind to paint pictures and stories totally spontaneously, the feeling is incredible because I can see and feel every minute detail. The right set and setting can trigger powerfully intense feelings of sexual euphoria.

For me, cannabis is a simple, safe way to enjoy myself and the company of friends.

I am not unhappy about their absence from my life, but see no reason to exclude it from being used by the more weak-willed.

Poisoning the well much?

 

[Virus]

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner. You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars. Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

 

[Dessi]

If there are any benefits to taking pot (or any other drugs) than what are they?

Being able to fully, fully enjoy Bollywood action movies:

 

[Polaris]

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner. You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars. Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

That is a crime that actually has a victim.

 

[Mudcat]

Medicinal benefits of cannabis are well documented.

According to that same link several of the medicinal value of pot is in dispute.

For recreational users, benefits are a goofy, fun, good time with friends, movies, and food. Same reason that people go to bars, ride bumper cars, and such. Socializing and recreation fun are enjoyable in their own right.

For me, cannabis is a simple, safe way to enjoy myself and the company of friends.

And these things can't be enjoyed without pot? Funny that, I seem to enjoy those things (well, except going to bars obviously) without it just fine.

I use cannabis while meditating as well. The right music can be incredibly relaxing, allowing my mind to paint pictures and stories totally spontaneously, the feeling is incredible because I can see and feel every minute detail. The right set and setting can trigger powerfully intense feelings of sexual euphoria.

I'll take your word for it. I'm too well grounded in reality to enjoy such experiences.

Poisoning the well much?

Weak willed people are weak willed people and will be weak willed people and will always be exploited by someone. I think it would be better for them if they were exploited by the government rather than criminal bastiches.

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner.

Because using pot, while I disagree with it, is mostly harmless.

And yes, it is possible to get addicted to it to the point that you are willing to engage in risky behaviors. But so is sex, yet I don't see you arguing to have that made illegal.

You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars.

Some might, actually, especially if this was a thread discussing GTA gameplay.

And I have seen people talk about having stole cars before on the net (not here, but it wouldn't surprise me any).

Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

While it's true that society has become more accepting of it, it is still a war on drugs.

Let's look at it logically shall we? Every second about $500 dollars is spent on the war on drugs, every 30 seconds someone is getting arrested for war (drug) crimes, of those people 8 out of every 10 are arrested for possession charges only.

I disagree with drug use, but even I can see that this isn't a small problem and it needs to be addressed.

 

[Dessi]

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner.

People == just me so far.

You probably don't know this, but I've also stood out in the busiest intersections in the city holding up signs legalize cannabis, I also make charitable donations to NORML and Erowid.

I have a lot of honest passion for the topic, and I think its important to address the subject candidly. Doing so is my own personal choice, other people choose to be much more anonymous on the subject.

You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars.

Maybe because stealing cars sociopathic. We're not talking about grand theft auto, we're talking about giggling stoners watching kids movies. You might as well compare arson to jaywalking.

Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

Maybe your comment is full of straw. I understand there is a risk, I just hope there isn't a huge amount of incentive to hunt down a once-a-month hippie stoner sharing experiences on the internet.

And no, what I prefer to disclose has nothing to do with society being tolerant of cannabis, but to combat the unproductive discussions on the subject.

Many people -- especially you -- speak about cannabis use in broad generalizations across an entire class of people without knowing who they are, without bothering to actually talk to them, stereotyping cannabis users as if there are a homogenous mass of nameless faceless people.

Then BAM! there's an actual person with a real perspective. Not a nameless faceless stereotype, but another human being with an emotional life, interests, a career, opinions, and wickedly good looking hair. Those convenient little stereotypes, generalizations, and all the words people put in my mouth don't hold much water anymore.

That's kind of the point. Stop talking about sterotypes, start talking to real people, promote open dialogue based on actual user perspectives.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Marijuana is not a benign drug even if it doesn't kill anybody. It can definitely cause serious personal, mental, and family problems. Those problems however don't get better by sending those people to jail, or the current situation of creating a billion dollar market for drug dealers.

When you drive people who are suffering from drug abuse underground, you reduce the amount of people that will seek treatment for their problem. And "getting stricter" only makes those problems worse.

It makes more sense on a social, safety, and health level to make marijuana legal and to require a portion of the tax proceeds be spent on treatment.

Evidence?

Could I see your evidence for this?

Yeah sure, I just had been a little busy, but there is plenty of evidence for this.

HOWEVER, before I do, I want to add that there is more than enough medical studies on the health damages from Marijuana that are readily available with one easy search on google, that it seems that a ask for evidence is not genuine. When you ask for evidence that takes you five seconds to find for yourself, it becomes pretty clear that it's not a matter of not being able to find the studies, it is an issue of not wanting to address or be honest about them.

That is a major problem if you want the average public to take the legalization effort seriously. There are very clear real life problems that occur from the use of Marijuana, but the societal, safety health, and financial damage from having the drug being declared as illegal is far worse. However, if you try to feed the American public a flat out lie of weed causing no harm whatsoever, you will never get the public to move past the bull of that argument to the argument of the larger damage being done by the drug war.

Starting out an argument for a flat out lie will not serve the effort for legalization at all. Triterope is not unique in his personal experiences of marijuana users of "disinterest in economic activity; incomplete education; underemployment; financial dependence on the government or family members; strained relationships." You are not going to get anywhere by asking for evidence of his personal experiences. You have to take his concerns, and similar concerns from other Americans seriously, and reasonably outline how both their lives and the lives who they know of who use Marijuana would be better off by legalization.

Now, as for some of the many examples of health affects from Marijauana:

Brain Pollution and the Real Reason You Shouldn’t Use Drugs

Long-Term Marijuana Use Affects Memory

Adolescent Marijuana Use May Cause Lasting Cognitive Deficits

Marijuana Use Affects Blood Flow in Brain Even After Abstinence

Marijuana and Teenagers: Does Drug Use Cause a Bad Brain?

Marijuana use linked to increased risk of testicular cancer

etc, etc, etc,

Salt is far more deadly than cannabis.

Where is the evidence for this?

 

[HoverBoarder]

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner. You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars. Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

That doesn't make any sense.

If there is no war on pot, where is all of the money going, and why is it still illegal?

If we are just making the situation worse off on all levels, why should there not be a change?

 

[psionl0]

People must be really scared of this "war on pot" if they casually discuss their drug use as on a public forum, as though they were discussing what they had for dinner. You wouldn't get on the net and talk about stealing cars. Maybe it's time to admit there is no war on pot, society has become increasingly tolerant of the drug and you don't fear any sort of criminal sanction in the least.

Are you arguing that it is time that the law got in touch with modern attitudes towards pot?

 

[Mudcat]

Are you arguing that it is time that the law got in touch with modern attitudes towards pot?

The law should get in touch with modern times. Period.

 

[Dessi]

For recreational users, benefits are a goofy, fun, good time with friends, movies, and food. Same reason that people go to bars, ride bumper cars, and such. Socializing and recreation fun are enjoyable in their own right.

And these things can't be enjoyed without pot?

They certainly are enjoyable sober, I have many good sober times with friends. Why shouldn't I enjoy some of those times with cannabis anyway?

I'll take your word for it. I'm too well grounded in reality to enjoy such experiences.

Altered states of consciousness and meditation are a personal pastime for me, not everyone cares for it. To each their own

I am not unhappy about their absence from my life, but see no reason to exclude it from being used by the more weak-willed.

Poisoning the well much?

Weak willed people are weak willed people and will be weak willed people and will always be exploited by someone. I think it would be better for them if they were exploited by the government rather than criminal bastiches.

In what sense are cannabis users "weak-willed", how are they being exploited?

 

[Mudcat]

They certainly are enjoyable sober, I have many good sober times with friends. Why shouldn't I enjoy some of those times with cannabis anyway?

No particular reason, it's just the way your original statement was it could be read as the only reason you enjoyed those experiences was because of pot. Sorry for my mistake.

Altered states of consciousness and meditation are a personal pastime for me, not everyone care for it. To each their own

On that you will get no argument from me.

In what sense are cannabis users "weak-willed"

In the same sense that religionists are. But I happen to like drug users more than I do religionists. At least pot heads aren't liable launch into a tirade about how I'm going to burn into hell for all eternity or convert heathens by the sword or something equally stupid.

How are they being exploited?

They are being exploited the same way that Homosexuals are by the politicians looking for even an extra bit of power, when both are just human beings. However due to the nature of the legality of pot one of the other people exploiting pot heads are the criminal element. Recipe for disaster, that.

 

[3point14]

Yeah sure, I just had been a little busy, but there is plenty of evidence for this.

HOWEVER, before I do, I want to add that there is more than enough medical studies on the health damages from Marijuana that are readily available with one easy search on google, that it seems that a ask for evidence is not genuine. When you ask for evidence that takes you five seconds to find for yourself, it becomes pretty clear that it's not a matter of not being able to find the studies, it is an issue of not wanting to address or be honest about them.

That is a major problem if you want the average public to take the legalization effort seriously. There are very clear real life problems that occur from the use of Marijuana, but the societal, safety health, and financial damage from having the drug being declared as illegal is far worse. However, if you try to feed the American public a flat out lie of weed causing no harm whatsoever, you will never get the public to move past the bull of that argument to the argument of the larger damage being done by the drug war.

Starting out an argument for a flat out lie will not serve the effort for legalization at all. Triterope is not unique in his personal experiences of marijuana users of "disinterest in economic activity; incomplete education; underemployment; financial dependence on the government or family members; strained relationships." You are not going to get anywhere by asking for evidence of his personal experiences. You have to take his concerns, and similar concerns from other Americans seriously, and reasonably outline how both their lives and the lives who they know of who use Marijuana would be better off by legalization.

Now, as for some of the many examples of health affects from Marijauana:

Brain Pollution and the Real Reason You Shouldn’t Use Drugs

Long-Term Marijuana Use Affects Memory

Adolescent Marijuana Use May Cause Lasting Cognitive Deficits

Marijuana Use Affects Blood Flow in Brain Even After Abstinence

Marijuana and Teenagers: Does Drug Use Cause a Bad Brain?

Marijuana use linked to increased risk of testicular cancer

etc, etc, etc,



Where is the evidence for this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._or_brain_damage.2Fdestruction_of_brain_cells

That should do you. It probably isn't written from a neutral point of view, I acknowledge so you will have to pick the bits you want out of it, but after receiving a lecture that I should do the research to valdate your claim, I think it's enough.

A lot of what you think you know about cannabis is a misconception.

 

[case#46cw39]

The problem I have with the "pot causes health/societal problems so should be illegal" crowd is that you never hear them complain about alcohol and call for alcohol prohibition.

If they really cared about these sort of things there would be a huge movement for alcohol prohibition. When have you ever heard them call for that? It's inconsistent and makes me doubt their sincerity. It seems more an excuse for cannabis prohibition then a reason they believe in, or they would be horrified by alcohol and have a mass social movement against it.

The World Health Organization reported earlier this year that “alcohol causes nearly 4 percent of deaths worldwide, more than AIDS, tuberculosis or violence.” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41529757/ns/health-addictions/#

Where was the uproar about this from those who care so much? Where is the call for alcohol prohibition as the only logical response to this as they say with cannabis?

Nothing. Just silence.

That shows me they are not being sincere about their "reason."

If this is truly their reason the very least they could do is put the alcohol down "for the children."

But our government officials are awash in a sea of alcohol, at every function, and every day.

I smell a fraud.

 

[WildCat]

Nor can I think of anywhere where alcohol is illegal.

Lots of places in Alaska, Native Alaskan towns mostly.

 

[WildCat]

Being able to fully, fully enjoy Bollywood action movies:

Supernatural Elvis to the rescue!

 

[HoverBoarder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._or_brain_damage.2Fdestruction_of_brain_cells

That should do you. It probably isn't written from a neutral point of view, I acknowledge so you will have to pick the bits you want out of it, but after receiving a lecture that I should do the research to valdate your claim, I think it's enough.

A lot of what you think you know about cannabis is a misconception.

So you do acknowledge that there are a large number of health studies that have shown that there are serious health problems that arise from the use of Marijuana.

Studies showing brain damage, mental deficiencies, testicular cancer, etc. have shown many different serious health problems associated with the use of the drug. These findings were from impartial and neutral studies that were conducted in many different countries that have show that even after quitting, there is serious mental damage done to a person who has frequently smoked Marijuana.

I am not asking you to take my word for it, read the studies and decide for yourself.


These negative health problems are on top of the personal developmental problems that develop from use of the drug.



These are serious problems, but having the drug continue to be illegal only adds to those problems just like it did under alcohol prohibition. The legalization effort needs to continue for the benefit of all Americans, but it needs to be honest and upfront if it is going to sway the undecided voters to its side.