Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Rest in peace dear Meredith

I too am very thankful to the translators for their beautiful work - this passage sums up nicely:

EXPERT REVIEW OF EXHIBITS 36 AND 165B

[Perizia genetica sui reperti 36 e 165b, pp. 66-93; translated by katydid]

http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com...cision/expert-review-of-exhibits-36-and-165b/

The thing I like about this section of Hellmann-Zanetti is that it restores the burden of proof to where it belongs. It is not up to the defense to prove contamination - it is up to the prosecution to prove that the collection handling and retrieval was done acc. to standards, and why the chain of possession demonstrates that what the court sees is properly interpreted DNA evidence.

It's still a jaw dropper to hear some PGP people say, "Well if they throw out the DNA for Knox and Sollecito, shouldn't they also be acquiting Guede?" You mean aside from Guede's admission that he was at the scene, admited to cradling the poor girl when she was dying and his DNA was found inside her? You mean other than that?

The difference between him and K and S is that the latter two have NO forensic trace, not a smidgeon, nada, nil, nothing, zilch, zippo, not anything at the crime scene.

Oh, you mean the mixed blood that isn't mixed-blood, in the vathroom Knox shared with Mez, and was collected in a wiping motion by the technician that itself resembled more a cleaning motion, than a collection process..... you mean that?

With Hellmann-Zanetti in print in English, I do not think I will waste my time on this merry-go-round, when someone thinks their undoing the acquital with a retort, "Well, what about the staged break-in? Huh? HUH!?!? That shut you up didn't it smart-ass!"

The response is simply to forward the link to the Hellmann-Zanetti report.

This case is closed. Chiuso. Cerrado. Done. Finished. Finito. Rest in peace dear Meredith. You deserve peace - and you deserve justice. And as of Hellmann-Zanetti, you finally have it.

 

[Rolfe]

With Hellmann-Zanetti in print in English, I do not think I will waste my time on this merry-go-round, when someone thinks their undoing the acquital with a retort, "Well, what about the staged break-in? Huh? HUH!?!? That shut you up didn't it smart-ass!"

The response is simply to forward the link to the Hellmann-Zanetti report.

This case is closed. Chiuso. Cerrado. Done. Finished. Finito. Rest in peace dear Meredith. You deserve peace - and you deserve justice. And as of Hellmann-Zanetti, you finally have it.

I just wish I saw some indication that the Kercher family understands that now. They deserve peace themselves, and the way this case has been handled has denied it to them.

I fear so long as Maresca is dementing on about Hellmann/Zanetti being duped/bribed/incompetent/biassed, it will be impossible for the Kerchers to achieve any sort of closure.

Rolfe.

 

[Teddy2007]

Hi Anglolawyer and others,
I have a coupla questions for ya'all regarding Miss Kercher's rent money.
I should know this by now but forgive me I don't and I can not recall reading this info but then again I haven't read the post trial verdict reports nor courtroom testimony...

What day and time did Miss Kercher withdraw her rent money?

Was it only the correct amount due to pay the rent or more?

Did she do so from an ATM machine or did she have to go inside a bank to do so?

How come she had her rent on her if she knew in advance that Filomena was not going to be home for her to give it to her on the 1st, a Thursday?
She seems to have been concerned about someone possibly scopin' out the place at night prior to her murder. I would think that she would not feel to safe carrying a buncha cash in her purse while walking home from Robyn's by herself and knowing that no one was gonna be home upstairs or downstairs.
So why not just leave it in the bank? And go take it out on Friday or whatever day Filomena was gonna be back?

How did Miss Kercher pay the past month, October's rent?
In person, cash also? Or in an envelope placed somewhere, where ever Filomena said to leave it?

Just wonderin'...
RW

In Rudy Guede's appeal trial, which I am reading, it says that there is no evidence to show that Meredith had already withdrawn €300 and had that money in the flat, hence no proof that €300 was stolen. It also states that Meredith usually paid her rent in cash.

Guede was found Not Guilty of stealing the €300 (and also not guilty of stealing the mobile telephones, because it was reasoned that Knox had probably taken them ).

 

[smkovalinksy]

The thing I like about this section of Hellmann-Zanetti is that it restores the burden of proof to where it belongs. It is not up to the defense to prove contamination - it is up to the prosecution to prove that the collection handling and retrieval was done acc. to standards, and why the chain of possession demonstrates that what the court sees is properly interpreted DNA evidence.

It's still a jaw dropper to hear some PGP people say, "Well if they throw out the DNA for Knox and Sollecito, shouldn't they also be acquiting Guede?" You mean aside from Guede's admission that he was at the scene, admited to cradling the poor girl when she was dying and his DNA was found inside her? You mean other than that?

The difference between him and K and S is that the latter two have NO forensic trace, not a smidgeon, nada, nil, nothing, zilch, zippo, not anything at the crime scene.

Oh, you mean the mixed blood that isn't mixed-blood, in the vathroom Knox shared with Mez, and was collected in a wiping motion by the technician that itself resembled more a cleaning motion, than a collection process..... you mean that?

With Hellmann-Zanetti in print in English, I do not think I will waste my time on this merry-go-round, when someone thinks their undoing the acquital with a retort, "Well, what about the staged break-in? Huh? HUH!?!? That shut you up didn't it smart-ass!"

The response is simply to forward the link to the Hellmann-Zanetti report.

This case is closed. Chiuso. Cerrado. Done. Finished. Finito. Rest in peace dear Meredith. You deserve peace - and you deserve justice. And as of Hellmann-Zanetti, you finally have it.

Well stated. In light of your articulate post, and the precise and clear passage of the Hellmann-Zanetti report on the esteemed experts, this morning's posts from PMF seem particularly lame and hollow:

People with NPD "feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[12] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility." {THIS MAY EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITH AK!!}In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he/she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious."

Did Meredith's"slight criticism"of AK and Meredith's LACK of "admiration, adulation attention and affirmation" of AK create in AK, the Pathological Narcissist.... "a desire to be feared and to be notorious??????"

 

[Grinder]

In Rudy Guede's appeal trial, which I am reading, it says that there is no evidence to show that Meredith had already withdrawn €300 and had that money in the flat, hence no proof that €300 was stolen. It also states that Meredith usually paid her rent in cash.

Guede was found Not Guilty of stealing the €300 (and also not guilty of stealing the mobile telephones, because it was reasoned that Knox had probably taken them ).

What I love about the Guede trial and the use the PGP put it to, is the fact that K and S weren't part of that trial and couldn't (or didn't) make their case or defend themselves.

There is something fundamentally wrong with a trial against one person being used against others that weren't there. How could there be any assumption that K & S stole money if there was no evidence that Meredith had any cash?

 

[Dan O.]

In the crime scene photos, there is an ATM receipt dated I believe late October 2007 sitting in the floor in Meredith's room beside her desk towards the door. The resolution of the images I have are not sufficient to make out the exact date or amount but this could be evidence that Meredith had in fact withdrawn €300 shortly before her murder. Of course, her bank records would provide this evidence directly so it should be a mater of fact that Meredith either did or did not withdraw rent money from her account.

 

[Bill Williams]

Folks - I think is is possible that the innocentatii have actually UNDERESTIMATED the role the tabloids played in the Kercher murder investigation and trial(s).

Yes, I said that. Underestimated.

With what is being revealed in the UK's phone hacking scandal, this piece just appeared in today Guardian newspaper:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jan/23/phone-hacking-news-world-milly-dowler

"Phone hacking: News of the World journalists lied to Milly Dowler police
Surrey police report released by MPs reveals reporters interfered with investigation as well as hacking missing girl's phone"

This is the world that Barbie Nadeau, Nick Pisa and Adrea Vogt worked. The thesis of this is this: that it is not so much the police using the tabloid press to demonize the suspects in the Kercher case, it was perhaps the other way around.... read this:

"Of all of the documents and evidence that have been produced by our phone-hacking inquiry, this is the most sickening and exposes the black hearts of those involved in perpetrating and covering up this scandal."

"Apart from the immorality of hacking into Milly Dowler's phone, the letter shows the sheer nerve of the News of the World in feeling able to bully and harangue the police ... This was a newspaper clearly intoxicated with the arrogance of its own power."

(The underlined part is mine for the purpose of my own emphasis.)

So I need to issue an apology to Barbie Nadeau for perhaps insinuating that she is a slutty journalist, esp. for her book, "Angel Face - Student Killer", which can be summarized as, "sex, sex, sex, drugs, sex, sex, murder, sex, sex."

There is now reason to believe that, because of the News of the World scandal, other tabloid press organizations were actively interfering with, and perhaps feeling they could (in actualitiy or not) influence the investigation of Kercher's murder. The point is, it was in the tabloid air that they could direct a criminal investigation. With lies and misinterpreted evidence.

Acc. to the Surrey police: "News of the World journalists who hacked Milly Dowler's phone told a string of lies and interfered with the investigation into her disappearance in 2002, according to a Surrey police report released by a parliamentary committee."

Is it much of a stretch to assume that Nadeau and others were similarly involved in these sorts of things?

I've always wondered about Nadeau. Apart from her slutty book, she has maintained a fairly consistant line here - she consistantly reverses the burdern of proof in reporting, saying things like, "Well, you are right, the original prosecution case was weak, but the defense case was fragmented and weaker."

She gives a good accounting of the effect that friends of Amanda had in court testimony, "Madison Paxton's heartfelt character assessment of Amanda was literally lost in translation, and no one picked up on that."

Nadeau was obviously one of those reporters closest to the actual trial. And, yes, she DOES understand Italy!

Nadeau obviously knew the limits on reporting given what happened to Frank Sfarzo who had his blog shut down by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who also managed to influence Google itself (!!!!!!).

Nadeau saw what happened to Douglas Preston who knew firsthand what Mignini would do to a journalist who did not adopt the party line.

Was this a war between journalists, tabloids and corrupt prosecutors over who controled who? If a lower level functionary like Nadeau was caught in that, no wonder whenever she speaks she seems to be choosing her words wisely.

Yet I am one who has judged Knox on a well-worn maxim, that I am about to apply to Nadeau in a bid to understand her as a journalist.

Edmund Burke: "All it takes for Evil to prevail in this world is for enough good (journalists) to do nothing. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (journalists) to do nothing."

And I guess we're not even accusing Nadeau of doing nothing, either.

Knox never had a chance. She was caught in a tabloid/police war that is only now coming to light with the News of the World phone hacking stuff...... Wow, just wow.

 

[Bill Williams]

Let's parse this, which is, by the way, NOT Statement Analysis as defined by the PGP. All that I am doing is drawing logical inferences from each claim below... I am not reading anything into the post. This is just to show that the post is meaningless, so why bother posting it?

People with NPD "feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[12] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility."

First, I would like to see the posters qualifications for saying this. Did they get it from Wikipedia, or are they inventing it? Still, the claim could be, on the face of it, true. It's not as if I'm an expert in psychopathology. But I do know enough about psychopathology to know that practitioners with years of training and experience wou;d always be cautious at such a diagnosis applied to anyone, even one with a long history of behaviour suggesting such. The poster would have to show why their own clinical contact with Amanda Knox (which would be unethical) would mean that this would apply to he. And an ethical practitioner most certainly would not be posting it to a website. This poster is no more than a hobbyist with an opinion, barely aware that they are talking about a real-live person, rather than a media creation.

{THIS MAY EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITH AK!!}In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he/she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious."

Note the rhetorical use of the word "may". This offers plenty of room for the poster to backpeddle. Strangely this word would also be used by a practitioner to indicate that they very well could be off base - it's not meant to be a rhetorical emergency exit, as used here.

The one thing that is negging to be explained are all the other 1000s of explanations for Knox's silence. Like maybe, she's sick and tired of this psycho-babble crap! She knows every word of hers is going to be dissected and applied to amateur Statement Analysis (like I calim I am not doing with this annoying MPF poster!).

Knox has already learned first hand that when she cries at the death of a friend, she'll be considered an actress, or when she gets angry ("she ***** bled to death") she'll be considered inapporpriate, or when she simply looks calm she'll be considered callous. Maybe she's just completely fed up with bozos doing amateur psychologizing! I mean, I'd be tempted to be silent on that alone.

Did Meredith's"slight criticism"of AK and Meredith's LACK of "admiration, adulation attention and affirmation" of AK create in AK, the Pathological Narcissist.... "a desire to be feared and to be notorious??????"

Now this poster is accusing Meredith of something deep-seededly psychological! Please note that this is the same kind of reasoning as, "when did you stop beating your wife."

I truely wish people would stop with the assumption of pathological narcissism so as to prove pathological narcissism. This isn't a hobby, this is the death of a real person from Britain we're talking about here.

 

[Grinder]

In the crime scene photos, there is an ATM receipt dated I believe late October 2007 sitting in the floor in Meredith's room beside her desk towards the door. The resolution of the images I have are not sufficient to make out the exact date or amount but this could be evidence that Meredith had in fact withdrawn €300 shortly before her murder. Of course, her bank records would provide this evidence directly so it should be a mater of fact that Meredith either did or did not withdraw rent money from her account.

One would think that this information about bank accounts for both AK and MK would have been in the Massei report or widely leaked by the ILE if there was information therein that was negative towards Amanda.

I do not believe that anything official has come out on the finances that put either Amanda or Raffaele in a bad light. As much as certain PGer has tried to make something out of AK's bank records.

On a related note, has anybody ever seen a history of Meredith's text and phone use?

 

[Didaktylos]

Let's parse this, which is, by the way, NOT Statement Analysis as defined by the PGP. All that I am doing is drawing logical inferences from each claim below... I am not reading anything into the post. This is just to show that the post is meaningless, so why bother posting it?


First, I would like to see the posters qualifications for saying this. Did they get it from Wikipedia, or are they inventing it? Still, the claim could be, on the face of it, true. It's not as if I'm an expert in psychopathology. But I do know enough about psychopathology to know that practitioners with years of training and experience wou;d always be cautious at such a diagnosis applied to anyone, even one with a long history of behaviour suggesting such. The poster would have to show why their own clinical contact with Amanda Knox (which would be unethical) would mean that this would apply to he. And an ethical practitioner most certainly would not be posting it to a website. This poster is no more than a hobbyist with an opinion, barely aware that they are talking about a real-live person, rather than a media creation.


Note the rhetorical use of the word "may". This offers plenty of room for the poster to backpeddle. Strangely this word would also be used by a practitioner to indicate that they very well could be off base - it's not meant to be a rhetorical emergency exit, as used here.

The one thing that is negging to be explained are all the other 1000s of explanations for Knox's silence. Like maybe, she's sick and tired of this psycho-babble crap! She knows every word of hers is going to be dissected and applied to amateur Statement Analysis (like I calim I am not doing with this annoying MPF poster!).

Knox has already learned first hand that when she cries at the death of a friend, she'll be considered an actress, or when she gets angry ("she ***** bled to death") she'll be considered inapporpriate, or when she simply looks calm she'll be considered callous. Maybe she's just completely fed up with bozos doing amateur psychologizing! I mean, I'd be tempted to be silent on that alone.


Now this poster is accusing Meredith of something deep-seededly psychological! Please note that this is the same kind of reasoning as, "when did you stop beating your wife."

I truely wish people would stop with the assumption of pathological narcissism so as to prove pathological narcissism. This isn't a hobby, this is the death of a real person from Britain we're talking about here.

You know, when I read that post at PMF my immediate reaction was to note how closely the description of what NPD people do corresponded to Mignini's actions and attitudes ...

 

[Grinder]

Folks - I think is is possible that the innocentatii have actually UNDERESTIMATED the role the tabloids played in the Kercher murder investigation and trial(s).

Knox never had a chance. She was caught in a tabloid/police war that is only now coming to light with the News of the World phone hacking stuff...... Wow, just wow.

Bill I've given the link back to the Mail stories that came out at the time and think you'd benefit from reading them. This is not a Ganong Show suggestion.

From the very beginning it was clear that the English tabs were using the murder for ratings, be damned with the truth or fair play. If the crime had occurred in England, they would not have been allowed to have printed what they did.

This case was in Italy and the Italian tabs had first access. The papers we English readers could read were obviously not fair and balanced and these phone hacking revelations really don't add much to the scandalous behaviors that were so transparent.

I doubt that the tab war in England affected Barbie as much as the red wine in Italy. If you haven't had an opportunity to see her on TV, I'd suggest you do so. She is much better suited to do reviews of restaurants and travel stories about beach resorts - you know that's what she did, right.

Go back and read Frank's comment section and you'll see what people said about the tabs at the time. RW has them and maybe somebody else could point you to where the archives of Frank's blog exist.

 

[christianahannah]

In the crime scene photos, there is an ATM receipt dated I believe late October 2007 sitting in the floor in Meredith's room beside her desk towards the door. The resolution of the images I have are not sufficient to make out the exact date or amount but this could be evidence that Meredith had in fact withdrawn €300 shortly before her murder. Of course, her bank records would provide this evidence directly so it should be a mater of fact that Meredith either did or did not withdraw rent money from her account.

There are two articles I have found (maybe there are more) concerning the withdrawal of money by Meredith from her bank account. One article is by Candance Dempsey, the other from Malcolm Moore. Both articles cite the 250 euros and Moore goes cites that bank records show Meredith withdrew 250 euros two days before her death (not sure where that information comes from).

The Moore article gets its information from Corriere dell'Umbria (from reported extracts of Rudy's latest police interview). I am not sure where Dempsey got her information. Dempsey's is the older of the two articles (January 29, 2008 to Moore's May 5, 2008). Maybe she has a reference included in her book?

Rudy's diary mentions money but I am not certain whether he was specific concerning the amount and I don't remember the dates of when it was written.

I have not found the Corriere dell'Umbria article mentioned by Moore (the search function doesn't navigate well) but some of the information contained in that article may be in another Italian journal.

Candance Dempsey article (scroll down to January 29, 2008 and the photo of Rudy Guede):

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/category/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-murder/page/15/

Malcom Moore article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...h-Kercher-and-flatmate-fought-over-money.html

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill I've given the link back to the Mail stories that came out at the time and think you'd benefit from reading them. This is not a Ganong Show suggestion.

From the very beginning it was clear that the English tabs were using the murder for ratings, be damned with the truth or fair play. If the crime had occurred in England, they would not have been allowed to have printed what they did.

This case was in Italy and the Italian tabs had first access. The papers we English readers could read were obviously not fair and balanced and these phone hacking revelations really don't add much to the scandalous behaviors that were so transparent.

I doubt that the tab war in England affected Barbie as much as the red wine in Italy. If you haven't had an opportunity to see her on TV, I'd suggest you do so. She is much better suited to do reviews of restaurants and travel stories about beach resorts - you know that's what she did, right.

Go back and read Frank's comment section and you'll see what people said about the tabs at the time. RW has them and maybe somebody else could point you to where the archives of Frank's blog exist.

Grinder - I have no doubt everything you say is true.

However, the Surrey police report on how the tabs dealt with the Milly Dowler case goes beyond what ANYONE has suggested went wrong in the Kercher murder case. This is what I mean by those who criticize the tabs are actually not going far enough!

The Surrey police are actually implying that, as the Labour MP say, the journalists themselves were bullying and misdirecting the police! They were not just mis-reporting, they were feeding misdirections to the police!

I am not accusing Nadeau of that. Yet. Yet, 2007 was part of the height of the assumed power of the tabloid editors. I can imagine many a conversation between and editor with Nadeau, saying to her to go get dirt, any dirt, even if she has to plant it with Mignini or Comodi herself.

Get the story! Even if you have to invent it on the ground with the police themselves!

Knox and Sollecito never had a chance.

Combine this with the undisputed fact that Nadeau knows how to be a journalist in Italy, in a way meant to avoid the stuff Frank S. and Preston got entangled in, and I think there is a recipe for more sleeze here that we know.

Proof that this might be correct - did anyone three years ago believe that News of the World would go under, and that there'd now be a phone hacking scandal?

This is what I mean by thinking that the innocentatii have actually been underestimating the tabloid influence on the Kercher murder.

 

[bookworm]

Amanda's testimony gives some vague details concerning Meredith's rent money. It was part of a discussion that the four girls were having.



Amanda also testified to how she, and probably Meredith, handled the rent monies:



I am not certain of the details of Filomena's testimony concerning Meredith's rent money but think it is probably along the same line as Amanda's.

Hmmmm - do you think Filomena arranged a robbery? For the rent money? Remember how odd her behavior was when Amanda called her? Hmmmmmm

 

[Grinder]

Bill,

I think Barbie is a terrible reporter. She didn't know how to "be a journalist in Italy" as she wasn't writing anything except puff pieces, restaurant reviews, travel pieces and some articles about Berlusconi. She wrote a few things for Newsweek but mostly for travel mags and recently the Daily Beast.

The idea that she planted stories with Mignini and Comodi seem preposterous to me and more in line with PGP's theories.

Once again, I urge you to read the old tab accounts and Frank's blogs.

If you can find that SBS Dateline show you will see that Barbie's approach wasn't sophisticated or insidious - just dumb.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Frank, on the other hand, is not wrong

Knox has already learned first hand that when she cries at the death of a friend, she'll be considered an actress, or when she gets angry ("she ***** bled to death") she'll be considered inapporpriate, or when she simply looks calm she'll be considered callous. Maybe she's just completely fed up with bozos doing amateur psychologizing! I mean, I'd be tempted to be silent on that alone.

Bill Williams,

Frank Sfarzo wrote of Amanda Knox in 2009, "“If she smiles it's wrong, if she cries it's wrong, if she moves it's wrong, if she's still it's wrong, if she watches it's wrong, if she doesn't watch it's wrong."

 

[Kaosium]

Nadeau obviously knew the limits on reporting given what happened to Frank Sfarzo who had his blog shut down by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, who also managed to influence Google itself (!!!!!!).

Nadeau saw what happened to Douglas Preston who knew firsthand what Mignini would do to a journalist who did not adopt the party line.

Was this a war between journalists, tabloids and corrupt prosecutors over who controled who? If a lower level functionary like Nadeau was caught in that, no wonder whenever she speaks she seems to be choosing her words wisely.

Yet I am one who has judged Knox on a well-worn maxim, that I am about to apply to Nadeau in a bid to understand her as a journalist.

Edmund Burke: "All it takes for Evil to prevail in this world is for enough good (journalists) to do nothing. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (journalists) to do nothing."

And I guess we're not even accusing Nadeau of doing nothing, either.

Knox never had a chance. She was caught in a tabloid/police war that is only now coming to light with the News of the World phone hacking stuff...... Wow, just wow.

That's interesting as I do see some parallels in Italy, but I think it works a little bit different there as your the first line I quoted suggests. The press there does indeed involve itself in the 'investigation,' see how so many of the 'witnesses' were in fact 'discovered' by that local newspaper, but in Italy the prosecution makes sure they know who wears the jackboots. Like Francesca Bene being hauled into the backroom after publishing the 'Fourth Man' article about the guy washing up at the fountain. They charged her with 'creating a public disturbance' or somesuch, though I don't think it went anywhere.

I think the main problem with the tabloids in this case is they just weren't skeptical enough about authorities and they did indeed go around trying to help 'prove' the prosecutions case, which would show up in court via the crucial vibrator testimony, the buying of the undies, the Streets of Bagdad Daily Mail piece entered into the court record and of course all the 'witnesses' they discovered. However I think in the end the source for almost all of the inaccuracies and outright lies was the police, the reporters were just duped from the beginning. I have some sympathy for Pisa's comment in that Australian documentary (SBC or somesuch?) that it's natural to assume what the police say bears some resemblance to the truth, and it took some of them far too long to come around.

 

[Kaosium]

Hellmann-Zanetti translation update:

Part 11: Expert Review of Exhibits 36 and 165b. (Why the court accepts the conclusions of its independent experts — Conti and Vecchiotti — that the DNA evidence from the knife and bra clasp is unreliable.) Translated by katy_did.

We didn't plan it this way, but the labor ended up being divided pretty much along "thematic" lines. To wit:

- komponisto: legal issues; circumstantial evidence (00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 16, 17, 19, 20)
- Newcomer: witness testimony (05, 06, 07, 08; 18)
- katy_did: Conti-Vecchiotti (11)
- roteoctober: other forensics (09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15)

Of course, as the "editor-in-chief", I should be the one to take the blame for any flaws that remain in the (never-quite-)finished product.

Once again, a sincere thanks to the collaborators and readers!

Thank you so much for your efforts, also Roteoctober, Katy-Did and Newcomer! (Teddy?)

Let me see, off the top of my head the original court decision was published in March of '10 and was released in English in August of '10. This came out ~December 21st, 2011 and was finished by January 22nd of '12.

Of course there wasn't nearly as much to translate, perhaps a third or so of the original Massei Report, so that massive undertaking shouldn't be forgotten either.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill,

I think Barbie is a terrible reporter. She didn't know how to "be a journalist in Italy" as she wasn't writing anything except puff pieces, restaurant reviews, travel pieces and some articles about Berlusconi. She wrote a few things for Newsweek but mostly for travel mags and recently the Daily Beast.

The idea that she planted stories with Mignini and Comodi seem preposterous to me and more in line with PGP's theories.

Once again, I urge you to read the old tab accounts and Frank's blogs.

If you can find that SBS Dateline show you will see that Barbie's approach wasn't sophisticated or insidious - just dumb.

Me? I'm just trying to see how far a line of enquiry can go before it falls of the rails. Also, there have been people here who have gone around the merry-go-round so many times they will not abide a relative newcomer (me) saying something nice about someone on "the other side".

So if this line ends up nowhere I won't be too sad - this lone being, "Just how much did the media actually influence the prosecution, as is now being uncovered by the UK police (in Surrey) as part of the phone hacking scandal?"

Then again, Nina Burleigh in the new video just out, repeats what others have said. The prosecution was feeding the media, and Andrea Vogt, for one, was feeding the info to the massive PMF database that has been developed by Steve Huff, Peggy Ganong, and someone named "Michael", and it all fed back to the Perugian authorities who even assigned someone to watch what was being posted in the blogosphere.

So I am not arguing Barbie's dumbness.... she had the smarts to hang out at the Perugian bar that all the lawyers and other journalists hung out at. She had the smarts to say on CNN the day after the 1st instance conviction, "This is Italy, I wouldn't be surprised if they were acquited at the 2nd instance. It happens here all the time." She was proved right on that.

I cannot find Frank's early blogs... can you point to them.

I also have read just about EVERY early British tablod from Nov 3 2007 to well into 2008. The one thing that strikes me about them is that the headlines go for the tittlation, and the content of the article is often not bad - the early muths circulate endlessly, true, the thing about Knox, "offering yet another story" is clearly something leaked by police, simply reported as Nick Pisa would trustingly write. (For the record: Knox only ever offered two stories, one based on interrogation excesses and not a bit of hashish.... acc. to Burleigh.)

So, the issue is not planting stories. The issue is being involved with the investigation as other posters point to here, like the local paper finding Quintaville, etc. It mught be beneficial to read the Guardian's report on the phone hacking Scandal and what the Surrey police are saying about the role the tabloids play in interfering, bullying and unduly harrassing the police themselves!

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill,

I think Barbie is a terrible reporter. She didn't know how to "be a journalist in Italy" as she wasn't writing anything except puff pieces, restaurant reviews, travel pieces and some articles about Berlusconi. She wrote a few things for Newsweek but mostly for travel mags and recently the Daily Beast.

The idea that she planted stories with Mignini and Comodi seem preposterous to me and more in line with PGP's theories.

Once again, I urge you to read the old tab accounts and Frank's blogs.

If you can find that SBS Dateline show you will see that Barbie's approach wasn't sophisticated or insidious - just dumb.

Grinder - read this report from Nine Burleigh, that she wrote for The Guardian following Knox's release:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/04/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-media

"What I found most surprising, though, was the way the journalists I worked with seemed hardly bothered by the problems with the case. And while everyone was focused on Amanda Knox, the "star" of the horrid murder theory, no one was doing journalistic due diligence into the background and criminal history of Rudy Guede."

"Yet, the pack of reporters on this story chose never to do the moderate work it took to understand the nature of the man who has never denied being in the room while Meredith Kercher bled to death. But I learned that journalists in Italy work differently than we do in the US."

"Perhaps the greatest single systemic inhibition on the Italian press – and on any journalist operating in Italy – has been the pervasiveness of the mafia in economic and political life."

"Foreign journalists posted to Rome have even less incentive to get too nosy. The Roman beat is luxurious and amusing – too much fun to risk by violating the national journalistic norm. When Meredith Kercher was murdered, there was little incentive for middle-class, middle-aged professional journalists enjoying Italy's lifestyle charms to shine too much light into dark corners."